Martial Arts Abilities

[David Bofinger]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

It's a ladder if you want to climb all the way to the top of a single portfolio, but most players will typically mix and match Powers from different portfolios

Sure. Have enough ladders and glue them together side by side and you've got a cliff. I guess what I'm saying is that I like the biggest ladders split up, and I think Unarmed Combat is a pretty big one, it's certainly expensive enough. It's also a defining ability - the first line of a character's description could be that they fight unarmed.

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

As I've written Street Fighting it has a few advantages similar to but less potent than both Martial Arts and Wrestling (some overlap gets unavoidable), but it runs cheaper than learning the others. Street Fighting is the compromise for those that don't want to spend too much IQ on barehanded abilities, but still want to have some agency if they are disarmed.

STREET FIGHTING replaces BRAWLING, then?

Will you be sharing your write-ups here?

[TippetsTX]

There are some ideas in a previous thread as well...

Unarmed Combat Again
https://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=195449

It seems like most agree that the current structure for UC talents needs to be torn down. My own priority (one of them, anyway) is to put the martial arts into a simplifed framework shared by every other 'weapon' talent. There's a prototype of this idea here...
https://forums.sjgames.com/showpost....0&postcount=19

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

Nothing as major added as in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, but I will be writing rules for the Master/MA3 level to include running straight up walls (about 12 ft?) jumping roof-to-roof (also about 12 feet?), and walking/running along tightropes -- those seem like they should be automatic advantages at the Master level.

I think the abilities described here belong in an advanced ACROBATICS talent. Just as handy for thieves and fighters as martial artists.

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

I think the abilities described here belong in an advanced ACROBATICS talent. Just as handy for thieves and fighters as martial artists.

Agree those should belong under advanced ACROBATICS, but I wouldn't want to make that talent a prerequisite for my Martial Arts Master because I'm setting the cost for the latter pretty high. Perhaps discount my Martial Arts Master skill cost for anyone who already knows advanced Acrobatics solves that.

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

Agree those should belong under ACROBATICS, but I wouldn't want to make that talent a prerequisite for my Martial Arts Master because I'm setting the cost for the latter pretty high. Perhaps discount my Martial Arts Master skill cost for anyone who already knows Acrobatics to solve that.

Not a prerequisite. I think one of the key concepts that David and I consistently agree on is that we need more complimentary talents... a way to broaden character capabilities.

[David Bofinger]

I think "Should Qigong skills have Acrobatics as a prerequisite?" is an interesting question and offhand I don't know the answer.

Qigong skills (I'm using "Lightness" as my working talent name) are notionally personal antigravity, and in movies are implemented by supporting the actors on wires.

• Jumping up or down an unreasonable distance
• Jumping horizontally a bit further as well.
• Walking/landing on things that shouldn't support your weight

Not sure what else.

I would like to have two levels of it, a larger-than-life level where the character does things that are impressive but not completely unreasonable, and a superpower level where the character is doing things which humans should not be able to do.

I agree Lightness should be available to people independent of punching skills, so that ninjas and roof runners can have it.

Acrobatics, on the other hand, is mostly about grace and balance.

• Avoiding falling places you do not wish to fall
• Getting out of the way of falling pianos
• Climbing ropes

These actually seem kind of different from qinggong.

The question then is whether we can reasonably imagine a character who can do the qinggong stuff but can't do the Acrobatics stuff. I think the answer is yes. So no prerequisite.

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by David Bofinger

I think "Should Qigong skills have Acrobatics as a prerequisite?" is an interesting question and offhand I don't know the answer.

To be clear, though, the abilities that Steve was looking to cover (wall running, enhanced jumping, etc.) aren't the same as the quasi-supernatural flying/floating wire-fu feats that you describe. I don't think ACROBATICS has anything to do with the latter (other than potential complementary bonuses).

And TBH, this is also an example of where the talent mechanic is insufficient. I'm extremely reticent to start ascribing mystic powers to talents. They just don't fit the framework IMO. Talents need to stay in their "non-magical" swimlane. We should use spells or, better yet, a third option like my Powers to support supernatural abilities.

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

To be clear, though, the abilities that Steve was looking to cover (wall running, enhanced jumping, etc.) aren't the same as the quasi-supernatural flying/floating wire-fu feats that you describe. I don't think ACROBATICS has anything to do with the latter (other than potential complementary bonuses).

Precisely where I draw the line -- things no human should be able to do belong under magic, not talents. Sure there's an implied license to stretch that a bit -- it is a game -- but I'm not one to stretch it past the breaking/believability point.

That said, I just re-watched an old Bruce Lee retrospective on Youtube, and some of the things he could do seem impossible for a mere mortal, but he trained himself to do those things, seemingly blurring the line between physical abilities and magic. For heaven's sake, he could play ping pong with NUNCHUKS instead of a paddle, against two opponents at once, both of whom had paddles, never missing a return and beating them both. Compared to that learning to fly should be easy!

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

STREET FIGHTING replaces BRAWLING, then?

Will you be sharing your write-ups here?

Yep, I don't want to use the BRAWLING talent. For my own purposes I've renamed "Hand-To-Hand" combat as "BRAWLING", because I never liked the term "Hand-To-Hand" anyway, so having a skill named "BRAWLING" as well would get too confusing.

I didn't just rename BRAWLING though, writing my own STREET FIGHTING skill without even looking up TFT's talent (which I don't ever recall seeing used). My STREET FIGHTING (which can be taken once or twice):

• Taken once it confers +2 DX in what TFT calls "HTH" combat (I don't give everyone in "HTH" a +4 to begin with)
• Taken a 2nd time it also confers +1 damage for all attacks in "HTH" (punches, kicks, or dagger stabs)
• I have my own table of rolls to rebuke attempts to get pounced on for "HTH". The relative level of STREET FIGHTING you have compared to the level of your attacker determines the modifier you add to your roll to resist getting into "HTH" (+0, +1, or +2). This is one place where it overlaps my Martial Arts and Wrestling skills, which also use the same relative level modifiers, all of which stack or offset each other. (The modifiers work both ways: a figure with STREET FIGHTER 2 gets a +2 to repel it if a regular figure attempts to drag them down for "HTH", while the regular figure gets a -2 to repel a figure with STREET FIGHTER 2 that wants to jump on them. When figures are equal in skill, there is no skill-based modifier for either of them.)
• Neither STREET FIGHTING 1 nor 2 confer any help DISENGAGING from "HTH" -- if you get in it you're just like anyone else. For advantages to DISENGAGE you either need Wrestling or Martial Arts 1, 2, or 3.
• STREET FIGHTING 1 confers +1 damage with any improvised weapons, while STREET FIGHTING 2 confers +2 damage with improvised weapons. (I have a separate table of improvised weapons and their damages.)
• At either level, having this skill allows you to take a small improvised weapon into "HTH" as you would a dagger as long as it's something sharp, pointed, or both. The +1 or +2 damage bonuses mentioned above then apply while in "HTH". (It may sound a bit goofy if you note the damage bonus with a dagger in "HTH" is never more than +1, but with skill level 2 a knitting needle could do +2 -- I could rework that, but my maximum knitting needle damage is 4 as it stands now where my maximum dagger damage with the same bonuses is 7 as I have it, so they aren't as close as it seems; I may still tweak that anyway.)