More Gun Help Please? The H&K P7M13

[Bathawk]

Thought that was a typo when I came across it in another RPG book...was wondering if anyone is able to help in statting it out?

here's a reference

http://hkp7.com/p7m13.htm

[Fred Brackin]

At the Gurps level of resolution it's no different than any other 9mm pistol but for magazine capacity and weight. That "squeeze-cocker" thing on the front of grip might raise Malf to "Very" but I think that's where HKs tend to end up even without such an addition.

It's an idea that we try and repeat when newbies come looking for gun stats but most of the Gurps statistics about gun are actually controlled by the cartridge it fires and its' barrel length. Any 9mm weapon with abrrel of average length is going to do 2D+2P. submachinegun length barrels will raise that to 3d-1. The very shortest barrels on super concealable guns might lower it to 2D+1.

Also, your link site's information about legality and magazine capacity is either
extremely dated 9or just plain wrong. Currently you can easily buy guns that have magazines with more than a a 10 round limit. I think there may ahve been a magazine limit of 10 back in the 90s but the legislation had an expiration date on it when it had to be renewed or just go away and it was not renewed.

[Donny Brook]

I would give it the same stats as the P7M8 but change Shots to 13 and raise Wt. by the equivalent of 5 rounds.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Also, your link site's information about legality and magazine capacity is either extremely dated or just plain wrong. Currently you can easily buy guns that have magazines with more than a a 10 round limit. I think there may ahve been a magazine limit of 10 back in the 90s but the legislation had an expiration date on it when it had to be renewed or just go away and it was not renewed.

Looking it up, there was indeed a 1994 law which expired in 2004 and banned magazines larger than 10 rounds. It was part of the Assault Weapons Ban. Some states (13 of them, currently) have their own restrictions that make high-capacity magazines (defined as "more than 10 rounds") illegal or at least more difficult to possess. Note this is a good example why things like Legality Class are generic guidelines rather than absolute rules - what effective LC a given item has can vary by time and location.

[HANS]

I discuss the P7M8 on my blog and provide full stats for both the P7M8 and the P7M13 in Tactical Shooting, p. 56. The P7M13 differs only in loaded Wt., Shots 13+1, and worse Bulk. Personally I've found that, where the P7M8 is an ideal carry gun (although slightly weighty compared to more recent polymer pistols), the P7M13 is a bit clunky. Its lines have been ruined by the double-stack.

Cheers

HANS

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by HANS

Personally I've found that, where the P7M8 is an ideal carry gun (although slightly weighty compared to more recent polymer pistols), the P7M13 is a bit clunky. Its lines have been ruined by the double-stack.

And this is why the Word Of Hans is pretty close to Word Of God for GURPS gun statistics.

Not only has he been statting up GURPS guns for 20+ years, he also has a immense library of firearms books, he pays close attention to industry developments AND he's an experienced shooter.

Anyone without the last trait is always going to be guessing as to how well a particular gun design works, even if they have all the other traits. (The closest substitute is reading lots of intelligent product reviews or a decent military report which discuss a weapon's virtues and faults, but even then an experienced shooter will understand "terms of art" that an inexperienced- or non-shooter will miss.)

Even better, Hans is working from outside the U.S., so he can ignore, or at least be neutral, on any contentious American political issues.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

It's an idea that we try and repeat when newbies come looking for gun stats but most of the Gurps statistics about gun are actually controlled by the cartridge it fires and its' barrel length.

By necessity, shooters are a conservative lot. You don't want to be risking your life, or success in the field or on the target range, with unproven equipment or ammunition.

This means that successful gun designs are usually designed to use a well-known and successful cartridge. (Lots of available, less expensive ammo). One quick way for an inventor to put themselves out of business is to design a novel gun which uses a proprietary cartridge, and which doesn't offer significant improvements over all cartridges/guns of equivalent caliber and performance. (e.g., Dardick, Gyro-Jet).

More generically, 99.9% of all guns will be incremental improvements over previous designs and contemporary guns within a tight category (e.g., .410 gauge single-barrel shotguns intended for bird hunting) are going to be nearly identical in stats other than weight and shot capacity and possibly RoF. Accurized or otherwise high quality weapons designed for target- or long-range shooting might have improved Acc. Guns designed to accurately fire groups of shots or otherwise limit recoil might have reduced Rcl.

Truly revolutionary guns, like the Colt Paterson or the StG44, will have novel features like greatly improved weight, RoF, Dmg or Range, but they will quickly attract imitators with similar characteristics but with further progressive improvements. That makes them the founding members of a new "family" of guns. Amazing technology breakthroughs when introduced, but quaint and crude compared to later guns of the same type.

The exception is when patents or similar issues force engineers to design weapons with work-arounds, in which case the imitations of the real thing will have truly strange design and usually inferior performance. (That's the reason I love 18th and early 19th c. guns. Due to rapid improvements in steel, machining technology, chemistry and cartridge design, no other period in gun development saw so many experiments.)

[Bathawk]

Originally Posted by HANS

I discuss the P7M8 on my blog and provide full stats for both the P7M8 and the P7M13 in Tactical Shooting, p. 56. The P7M13 differs only in loaded Wt., Shots 13+1, and worse Bulk. Personally I've found that, where the P7M8 is an ideal carry gun (although slightly weighty compared to more recent polymer pistols), the P7M13 is a bit clunky. Its lines have been ruined by the double-stack.

Cheers

HANS

Looks like I'll be buying a new PDF later tonight lol

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by HANS

I discuss the P7M8 on my blog and provide full stats for both the P7M8 and the P7M13 in Tactical Shooting, p. 56. The P7M13 differs only in loaded Wt., Shots 13+1, and worse Bulk. Personally I've found that, where the P7M8 is an ideal carry gun (although slightly weighty compared to more recent polymer pistols), the P7M13 is a bit clunky. Its lines have been ruined by the double-stack.

Admittedly I haven't handled either of these pistols, but I have a hard time accepting that a double-wide grip can account for a step change in the GURPS Bulk stat which seems to be mostly about wieldiness more than comfort.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

Admittedly I haven't handled either of these pistols, but I have a hard time accepting that a double-wide grip can account for a step change in the GURPS Bulk stat which seems to be mostly about wieldiness more than comfort.

The P7M8 weighs 2.1 lbs loaded, the P7M13 2.5 lbs. All the automatic pistols in Tactical Shooting of 2.3 lbs or more are Bulk -2, all those of lower weight are builk -1.

Looking at HT, it looks like the threshold is probably 2.0 lbs, with some adjustment for guns that are especially handy or unwieldy.