[GUN FU] How to offensively defend yourself with guns?

[binn05]

Yesterday night, I was running some mock fights with my players to get used to Foundry VTT and the GURPS 4e Game Aid, and we got some questions that I couldn't answer, mainly about gun usage.

Our group only played GURPS DF 4E, so guns are not our forte.

But before my questioning, I'd like to say: Found VTT + GURPS Game Aid is AMAZING!
I know SJG has a strict policy about automation and VTT, but oh boy!
I had a co-GM who is more Foundry-savvy than I am but is a Storyteller GM, with his help and other modules he installed, the mock fights were rolling as melted butter.
It was especially helpful for some of my players who have a hard time getting around many of GURPS rules (like my co-GM) because it was right there for them to test and see the results.
If my 2c can be added to the poll of other players, I'd like to say that more GURPS VTT modules would help the gameplay. I even added Gaming Ballistic VTT bestiary modules to my wish list because I imagine they will be helpful, something I hadn't considered before.

Ok, enough rant. Let's start the questioning.

1. The PCs were fighting some Ratdogs. Their attacks have Reach C, and one of the players wanted to "parry" a bite using his shotgun like a staff. Using foundry I quickly read Close Combat rules, and parries are no-no.
But we like to play cinematic games and emulate some classical cinema action, like the shooter that parries with his gun barrel sideways preventing the mouth from closing and holding the animal in a wrestling contest.
Something like in this video.
How to emulate that?

2. Now instead of "parrying" the attack like above, how could he prevent the attack by putting the muzzle inside the animal's mouth and preparing an "inside" attack for his next turn? I couldn't find any movie image that showed that, but it is a classic scene from many action, horror, and post-apocalypse movies. Also, I think this type of follow-up attack should be an automatic hit, what do you think?

3. Also, if they were fighting in Close Combat, any gun attack use Bulk penalties. Wouldn't be easy to hit the animal's face because of the way both characters were "entangled"? (is this the right word? I'm not a native speaker).

4. Considering shotgun usage at 10% 1/2D at B409 - Shotgun and Multiple Projectiles. The rules say that a damage 1d+1, RoF 2x8 weapon would become 4d+4 pi damage. By High-Tech 104 Rcl would be 1/5 for the weapon used. So he could hit twice if MoS was 5+? Is everything correct here?

5. Considering the same shotgun from above. If it was further than 10% 1/2D, the attack would have a +3 bonus to hit from Rapid Fire (2x8) and could hit the target twice if MoS was 1+ for 1d+1 pi damage?

As I said above, the idea is to have a more gun-fu action post-apocalypse game, even if it is a bit silly sometimes. I sure am forgetting some things, but those were the most discussed details during the sessions.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by binn05

4. Considering shotgun usage at 10% 1/2D at B409 - Shotgun and Multiple Projectiles. The rules say that a damage 1d+1, RoF 2x8 weapon would become 4d+4 pi damage. By High-Tech 104 Rcl would be 1/5 for the weapon used. So he could hit twice if MoS was 5+? Is everything correct here?

5. Considering the same shotgun from above. If it was further than 10% 1/2D, the attack would have a +3 bonus to hit from Rapid Fire (2x8) and could hit the target twice if MoS was 1+ for 1d+1 pi damage?

The things I cut require a lot of GM calls, I think, so I'll have to think on them and come back.

For 4 & 5 it's fairly simple rules stuff:

4. At 10% range and under each shot counts as one shot, so no extra hits are possible unless he fires twice, but if he does then yes, at 5+ he gets two hits.

5. This is correct, and for each point of success he hits with an extra pellet, until all of them are accounted for.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by binn05

1. The PCs were fighting some Ratdogs. Their attacks have Reach C, and one of the players wanted to "parry" a bite using his shotgun like a staff. Using foundry I quickly read Close Combat rules, and parries are no-no.
But we like to play cinematic games and emulate some classical cinema action, like the shooter that parries with his gun barrel sideways preventing the mouth from closing and holding the animal in a wrestling contest.
Something like in this video.
How to emulate that?

Parries in Close Combat are readily doable, but call for a Reach C weapon (you can Parry punches with your hands, for example). Martial Arts has an optional rule where you can strike and Parry at Reach C even with weapons that are too long, at -4 to skill per yard of Maximum Reach (which works out to a -2 to Parry). For firearms, if you aren't going to the hassle of defining each as a melee weapon, I'd say use Bulk/4 (round the penalty up, so Bulk -5 is -2 to Parry) to determine the appropriate penalty. Note this typically means anything of carbine length or shorter is at -1 to Parry at Reach C, while longer weapons (that is, most rifles) are at -2.

Of course, if the ratdog didn't start the round at Reach C, this is moot - if a foe Steps into Close Combat with you in the process of making their attack, can defend as though they were still at Reach 1, so no penalty.

Originally Posted by binn05

2. Now instead of "parrying" the attack like above, how could he prevent the attack by putting the muzzle inside the animal's mouth and preparing an "inside" attack for his next turn? I couldn't find any movie image that showed that, but it is a classic scene from many action, horror, and post-apocalypse movies. Also, I think this type of follow-up attack should be an automatic hit, what do you think?

Holding your weapon against the target before pulling the trigger ("Dodge this") is a Telegraphic Attack (as explained in Tactical Shooting). But if you're shoving the weapon into its mouth to try to stop it from being able to bite you (and then presumably later pulling the trigger), that's something like a Weapon Bind, from Fantastic Dungeon Grappling. If not using that (it revamps the way grappling works significantly; it's basically a simplified - and improved - version of Technical Grappling), it's easy to bring into play - it's a special case of an Armed Grapple, so is at -2 (arguably plus the standard size-based penalty to grapple the weapon itself, although I'd waive that if you just Parried an attack from it) without the relevant Armed Grapple Technique. It works just like a grapple of the weapon (preventing its use), with one exception - the foe can break free simply by stepping back a yard. For the ratdogs, I'd say the character would first use their weapon to Parry a bite, then use that as justification to start a Weapon Bind, using their weapon to Bind the weapon of the ratdog (its mouth). If the ratdog jumps back, the bind ends - but if it keeps trying to break through anyway, it's grappled. In that situation, I probably wouldn't bother calling for a roll when the character attacks the next turn - just resolve it as a hit to the Skull, ignoring the target's natural DR (if any) on account of being in the mouth. Of course, I'd also rule that the gun being in its mouth means the ratdog is effectively grappling it, so there's the risk it may be to disarm you before you can fire.

Originally Posted by binn05

3. Also, if they were fighting in Close Combat, any gun attack use Bulk penalties. Wouldn't be easy to hit the animal's face because of the way both characters were "entangled"? (is this the right word? I'm not a native speaker).

It's difficult to position a long gun's barrel at something right in your face while still maintaining a grip on the trigger. Additionally, the weapon's bulk will get in the way of positioning it (the barrel will get blocked by the target's body when you try to aim it at them). So, Bulk penalties make perfect sense here.

Originally Posted by binn05

4. Considering shotgun usage at 10% 1/2D at B409 - Shotgun and Multiple Projectiles. The rules say that a damage 1d+1, RoF 2x8 weapon would become 4d+4 pi damage. By High-Tech 104 Rcl would be 1/5 for the weapon used. So he could hit twice if MoS was 5+? Is everything correct here?

The only thing you're missing is that, within that 10% range, the projectile gets a piercing-class upgrade - specifically, it becomes pi++. It's basically an extra-frangible shotgun slug at that range.

Originally Posted by binn05

5. Considering the same shotgun from above. If it was further than 10% 1/2D, the attack would have a +3 bonus to hit from Rapid Fire (2x8) and could hit the target twice if MoS was 1+ for 1d+1 pi damage?

It could potentially hit up to 16 times when fired at full RoF, although that would require MoS 15 - 2x8 means you're putting a total of 16 projectiles in the air, after all. So, one hit on MoS 0, two on MoS 1, three on MoS 2, and so forth.

[sir_pudding]

Yeah shoving barrels into monster mouths is the kind thing that is why I use FDG for all grappling these days. I would let you spend control to do this.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by binn05

3. Also, if they were fighting in Close Combat, any gun attack use Bulk penalties. Wouldn't be easy to hit the animal's face because of the way both characters were "entangled"? (is this the right word? I'm not a native speaker).

.

Relevant to the question of hitting the ratdog's face is that regular dogs at least possess the Born Biter Trait from Martial Arts ("Teeth" textbox on p.115). This would reduce the penalty to target that body part because the jaws of many animals are proportionately larger and more exposed to attacks by thrusting forward in ways that human jaws don't.

As a general note if you are going to "grapple" (pun intended) with issues like this you probably want not only the main Martial Arts book but the Gun Fu and possibly even Tactical Shooting pdfs. They deal with _many_ questions like yours.

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by binn05

1. The PCs were fighting some Ratdogs. Their attacks have Reach C, and one of the players wanted to "parry" a bite using his shotgun like a staff. Using foundry I quickly read Close Combat rules, and parries are no-no.
But we like to play cinematic games and emulate some classical cinema action, like the shooter that parries with his gun barrel sideways preventing the mouth from closing and holding the animal in a wrestling contest.
Something like in this video.
How to emulate that?

Considering the Thread title the following is a bit curious, but:

I expect what you are looking for is in the Gun-Fu GURPS PDF (pg 21). The perk is called Pistol Fist. It basically deals with using a gun in melee and close combat. So for 1 pt you can lacerate your friends faces and parry away with your firearm, using the appropriate Gun skill numbers.

[Donny Brook]

Pistol Fist is great, but confined to only pistols. You can get a similar effect with Improvised Weapons (Brawling) using a pistol as a fist-load. Neither overcomes the problem of using a greater than C-reach weapon in close combat.

[Anaraxes]

Defensive Grip and Reversed Grip (MA 111) both allow a warrior to shorten the reach of long weapons for use in close combat. The rules are written with the usual melee weapons in mind, but they both allow swords and spears to be used with these grips. You might consider a shotgun to be close enough to a spear to use these rules. (For this thread, let's sidestep the dread spear and staff debate.) My mental image of holding the barrel and stock in a staff/spear-like grip seemed like it would allow use in CC, with the usual disadvantages of Defensive Grip (reduced damage, etc).

The GM might well require use of the Spear or Staff skill; lacking that skill just means calculating the Parry or to-hit values from the character's default for the skill. Or you might consider that the character's training included enough hand-to-hand use of a rifle that you're willing to use the Guns skill for these purposes. (But note that there's no reason that gun fighting style can't teach two skills; most martial styles do.)

Neither of these grips sounds like the warrior is keeping the gun in a firing position, finger through the trigger guard and so on. (Seems like a good way to break a finger.) A character planning on fighting this way probably wants to take Grip Mastery so they can change from the "staff" grip to the "shooting" grip without taking a turn to Ready.

Sticking the barrel into the mouth of an attacking animal I'd treat just as a Spear thrust, targeting the mouth at -7. (That's one point harder than "Jaw", from MA 137 "New Hit Locations".) A shotgun is a blunt "spear", to be sure, so no damage from a success. But you will get to claim that inside attack if the opponent doesn't manage to disengage from the weapon before the shooter's next turn to fire comes around -- assuming the shooter's got that Grip Mastery to switch back to a shooting grip on the stock/trigger. (I'd probably resolve the disengagement as breaking a grapple, unless the animal just runs away. The real question is whether the animal's smart enough to do so, or whether it's just going to try to worry the shotgun to death. So the GM might let the mundane guard dogs get blasted, while the wily, experienced maneater is more wary of firearms. Whatever works in the game.)

[Christopher R. Rice]

In GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Thieves I wrote up a power-up that lets you attack the target if you defend against their attack. It's on p. 25 and called "Devious Defense."

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

Pistol Fist is great, but confined to only pistols. You can get a similar effect with Improvised Weapons (Brawling) using a pistol as a fist-load. Neither overcomes the problem of using a greater than C-reach weapon in close combat.

You are correct sir! My bad. Tho if I were running the game I probably would allow it with a long arm as long as the player was using two hands on the weapon. (If the PC wanted that I would probably recommend Grip Mastery to him also otherwise to get prepared to melee with his shotgun would take a round of Ready!)