Leveling up skills

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by Shostak

To my way of thinking, a good approach to levelled talents would be to have TALENT I letting you roll against your basic attribute, TALENT II at attribute +1, TALENT III at +2, etc. (This is similar to Missile Weapons and the GURPS model.) This approach works best when there are caps on attributes so that one can't more efficiently increase ability with all talents based off a given attribute by raising the attribute instead of increasing skill.

Agreed, which is likely why HOW doesn't provide for attribute increases. All your XP in that system goes to either new skills/spells* or adding 'levels' to existing skills/spells. The challenge in adapting this to TFT are 1) potentially accepting even more strict limitations on attribute progression, 2) talents must each be aligned to an attribute and many would need to re-written to give them some kind of clear roll-dependant ability, 3) getting better at spellcasting requires ongoing investment in the same spells which also means spells will have variable rolls, 4) removing IQ prerequisites for talents and spells and 5) certainly there are other implications I haven't thought of here.

*BTW, how do wizards access higher IQ spells in HOW if they can't increase their IQ after character creation? Seems like a significant flaw in that system.

[Jpot]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

Agreed, which is likely why HOW doesn't provide for attribute increases. All your XP in that system goes to either new skills/spells* or adding 'levels' to existing skills/spells. The challenge in adapting this to TFT are 1) potentially accepting even more strict limitations on attribute progression, 2) talents must each be aligned to an attribute and many would need to re-written to give them some kind of clear roll-dependant ability, 3) getting better at spellcasting requires ongoing investment in the same spells which also means spells will have variable rolls, 4) certainly there are other implications I haven't thought of here.

*BTW, how do wizards access higher IQ spells in HOW if they can't increase their IQ after character creation? Seems like a significant flaw in that system.

In HOW a wizard may find or learn a higher IQ spell but rolls 4 dice/IQ against for it to succeed. There are no spell DX throws to hit. All spells are cast rolling under IQ, so this potentially allows for choosing higher IQs.
From the introduction, says the intent is to mimic early Moldvay experience and keeping characters lower-powered engenders more teamwork to accomplish epic tasks while they build skills up to +6 on a skill roll. As i mentioned earlier, experience needed to build a skill doubles every "level".

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by Jpot

In HOW a wizard may find or learn a higher IQ spell but rolls 4 dice/IQ against for it to succeed. There are no spell DX throws to hit. All spells are cast rolling under IQ.

Right, except you can't learn a spell that don't have the IQ for (as I read it) so I have to wonder why they didn't remove the IQ prerequisites for spells like they did for skills.

[Jpot]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

Right, except you can't learn a spell that don't have the IQ for (as I read it) so I have to wonder why they didn't remove the IQ prerequisites for spells like they did for skills.

Under Magic & Spells, Page 22, 1st paragraph states that only a wizard character can learn & cast spells above his own IQ, rolling 4/IQ to cast.

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by Jpot

Under Magic & Spells, Page 22, 1st paragraph states that only a wizard character can learn & cast spells above his own IQ, rolling 4/IQ to cast.

And page 51 says...
"Learning new skills or spells applies only if your IQ allows it by having space to learn a new skill or spell."

So apparently a wizard can cast the spells by rolling 4 instead of 3 dice, but not learn them. How can you make more space for new spells (or skills) if you can't increase the attribute value?

We don't need to get too caught up in the specifics of HOW's ruleset, though. It's just one way talent 'levels' might work.

[Jpot]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

And page 51 says...
"Learning new skills or spells applies only if your IQ allows it by having space to learn a new skill or spell."

So apparently a wizard can cast the spells by rolling 4 instead of 3 dice, but not learn them. How can you make more space for new spells (or skills) if you can't increase the attribute value?

I know right? Here is how I reason it out.
Each character gets only 5 points for skill/spells to start as per RAW. So a beginning Wizard w say IQ12 will take time to gain experience/gold & find/learn the spells while playing that will fill his slots. Keep in mind he will need skills too! In other words, it seems it would be a fairly low-powered campaign in most respects. Meanwhile you can also opt to use that xp to increase skill or spell power.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Jpot

HOW rules set does away with attribute increases, and introduces an Endurance stat (EN), with 10 starting points to give. 5 pts go to skills/spells at 1/2 and 2/1 cost (Heroes & Wizards). Meanwhile, it focuses on "skill levels" so that the characters do not become innately more powerful, but they can become very skilled. Each point spent on skills increases the Adj Attribute score by +1. Most up to max of 3. Cost is 100x pt level. (+1 is 100xp, +2 is 200 and so on.)
I'm trying to work through what it eventually looks like as I've never played it that way.

I've been patiently waiting for someone to tell me what HOW is, but it doesn't seem to be happening.

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by phiwum

I've been patiently waiting for someone to tell me what HOW is, but it doesn't seem to be happening.

Apologies... HOW (Heroes & Other Worlds) is a TFT-clone written and designed by C.R. Brandon. It was released in the dark times before Steve had regained the rights to TFT.

It's an interesting take on the system and has some great supplements.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

Apologies... HOW (Heroes & Other Worlds) is a TFT-clone written and designed by C.R. Brandon. It was released in the dark times before Steve had regained the rights to TFT.

Thanks much.

[dmgrafton]

Just a comment back to the one of the original core topics/questions on talents and progression. We did a few things to expand character development with use of talents. The first one we did was separate combat vs non combat talents. Combat talents were seen as contributing to/preventing the increase or decrease of an opponents ST related to wounds (so in this case Physicker was grouped in the combat talent bucket as well as Detect Traps) and noncombat talents were used outside of melee, like Business Sense. We allowed PCs 1/2 points of IQ for non combat talents (round up). That has allowed more talents adoption without over powering a PC in combat. The second was we defined simple Classes similar to DnD but strayed somewhat to keep more of the TFT feel of professions. If you opted for one of these classes you received a combat "Talent Packet" and a "Non combat Talent Packet" that tailored the talents to the profession. For each Talent Packet you received a "free" talent in each Packet for learning a focused profession, assuming traing and support from a mentor, guild etc. We tested each for awhile and were happy so have retained them.