New Modification / Advantage

TJA · 10-26-2004, 05:26 AM

Multiplied Strength

Each level of Multiplied Strength doubles your level of ST and HP. This costs 100p per level of Multiplied Strength.
You can also multiply your level of ST and HP by 1.5 for 58p or multiply your level of ST and HP by 1.25 for 32p. You can freely mix those levels of multiplication.
You can modify regular ST (incl. HP), Lifting ST or Striking ST seperately with Multiplied Strength. For Lifting ST and Striking ST, this costs 16p for Multiplication with 1.25, 29p for Multiplication with 1.5 or 50p for Multiplication with 2 per level.

Limitation: ST-only. You do not get increased HP from increased ST. This is a -25% limitation and only applicable to regular ST, not Lifting or Striking ST.

Examples:

A Super with base ST of 12 buys 2 levels of Multiplied ST at 50p each. This gives ST and HP at 27 for a total of 100p. Then he adds one level of Multiplied ST with the limitation ST-only for 75p. This give ST 54 and HP 27 for a total of 175p.

The Hulk, with a normal ST of 10, buys 9 levels of Modified ST at 50p each and get a whooping ST and HP of 384 for 450p.

What do you think?
It feels good to me - would make building Supers (and Immortals :-) much more easy ...
I´m not sure that -25% is enought for the limitation ST-only- maybe this should be -50% ?!?

ericbsmith · 10-26-2004, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJA

What do you think?
It feels good to me - would make building Supers (and Immortals :-) much more easy ...

I think GURPS dropped this advantage a long time ago (see old copies of Aliens, Fantasy Folk, and I think Supers). Didn't like it much then, don't like it much now.

Basically you're trying to find an excuse to allow very high ST at a much lower cost. Is there any reason having the ST to lift a tank or a building shouldn't cost thousands of points?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJA

You can freely mix both levels of multiplication.

Even within the rules as you lay them out this is a not very well thought out rule. If you can freely take two levels of x1.5 for 100 points, giving a final multiplier of x2.25, is there any reason someone would buy the x2 multiplier for 100 points?

TJA · 10-26-2004, 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

Basically you're trying to find an excuse to allow very high ST at a much lower cost. Is there any reason having the ST to lift a tank or a building shouldn't cost thousands of points?

You can buy Basic Speed, Move and Dodge for 60p per level: 40p for DX +2 and 20p for HT +2. This gives 2+2/4 = 1 level of Basic Speed and Move and Dodge.
If you want to fly, you can base off this for 40p and buy Flight.
You could then pay 2p for each additional increase of Move ...
If you want to fly at light-speed:

Arround 300000 km per second ~= 200000ml per second => 12000000 ml per minutes => 720000000 ml per hour.
This is a Move of 360000000 and would cost 720000000 points.

Enought of an example? :-)

OF COURSE we need such a rule!

Because of this, we have Enhanced Move (Air) and Enhanced Move (Space).
It does the some - multiplies your Speed for 10 or 20 points only. A bit to cheap, i think ...

For ST, such a rule would be great as well - but not so cheap! You should not get a benefit from buying it in the early levels. But when you can a realy strong thing, you can use Multiplied Strength then!

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

Even within the rules as you lay them out this is a not very well thought out rule. If you can freely take two levels of x1.5 for 100 points, giving a final multiplier of x2.25, is there any reason someone would buy the x2 multiplier for 100 points?

This just depends on where you start :-)

Also, this helps to reach a special level of ST - with a fixed 2.0 multiplied, it would just not be possible to get to x2.25 ...

And then, Enhanced Move works the same!

ericbsmith · 10-26-2004, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJA

Enought of an example? :-)

OF COURSE we need such a rule!

Because of this, we have Enhanced Move (Air) and Enhanced Move (Space).
It does the some - multiplies your Speed for 10 or 20 points only. A bit to cheap, i think ...

For ST, such a rule would be great as well - but not so cheap! You should not get a benefit from buying it in the early levels. But when you can a realy strong thing, you can use Multiplied Strength then!

You're missing the fact that ST already has a multiplier built into it through Basic Lift, which Move (without Enhanced Move) does not. What you're doing is adding another multiplier to ST. You are, in effect, creating Exponential ST rather than the (current) Quad ST. If that's your goal you might as well just say so and make it Exponential in effect by increasing Basic Lift and/or Damage. At least then you'd be honest in the effect you're trying to generate (high levels of Lift or Damage for fewer points).

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJA

This just depends on where you start :-)

Also, this helps to reach a special level of ST - with a fixed 2.0 multiplied, it would just not be possible to get to x2.25 ...

And then, Enhanced Move works the same!

That's not how Enhanced Move works. Enhanced Move only allows you to buy a single 1/2 level, on top of whatever full levels of Enhanced Move you buy. And Enhanced Move explicetly states that if you want a Move less than the maximum calculated it's just a special effect.

TJA · 10-26-2004, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

If that's your goal you might as well just say so and make it Exponential in effect by increasing Basic Lift and/or Damage. At least then you'd be honest in the effect you're trying to generate (high levels of Lift or Damage for fewer points).

Yep, this was my goal.
You are right, i could just calculate the damage i want - for example 40d for 200p - and reverse that to get to the ST needed ...

But this way, i have problems to calculate enhanced levels of lifting ST only.
Also, this is not an official rule as well.

I need to think about this - thanx for the idea! :-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

That's not how Enhanced Move works. Enhanced Move only allows you to buy a single 1/2 level, on top of whatever full levels of Enhanced Move you buy. And Enhanced Move explicetly states that if you want a Move less than the maximum calculated it's just a special effect.

Huh?
Please read this Advantage again ;-)
Or do i missunderstand?!?

Enhanced Move doubles your basic Speed for 20p or multiplies it with 1.5 for 10p. You can buy as much level as you want - for example around 27 level to reach the speed of light (read in the examples)!

You can increase your speed by your regular Basic Speed every round until you reach the top-speed that Enhanced Move allows for.

TJA · 10-26-2004, 07:27 AM

Your idea about basically buying damage over Innate Attack at 5p per 1d is fine, so far ... but has problems i cannot solve:

Try the Hulk again:

Say, we want 40d damage (normaly at around ST 400), this is 200p as an Innate Attack.
But this would be Striking ST only ...

We want him to lift with ST 400 as well ...
The old problem arises again!

We want him to have 400 HP as well ....
The old problem arises again!

There are parts of ST (and HP) that would need *massive* amount of points into them instead of a leveling/multiplying advantage or modifier.

I still think, that such a modifier is more elegant!

ericbsmith · 10-26-2004, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJA

Huh?
Please read this Advantage again ;-)
Or do i missunderstand?!?

Enhanced Move doubles your basic Speed for 20p or multiplies it with 1.5 for 10p. You can buy as much level as you want - for example around 27 level to reach the speed of light (read in the examples)!

You can buy as many levels as you want, but you can only buy one 1/2 level of it.
So you can buy level 6 1/2 levels for 130 pts, multiplying move by 96 (2^6 *1.5). You can't, however, buy thirteen 1/2 levels of it for 130 pts (which would result multiplying your move by 1.5^13=194.6).

tbone · 10-26-2004, 10:10 AM

TJA,

Given what you're looking for, I wonder what you think of the proposal found here:
http://www.io.com/~tbone/gurps/GULLI...#STCostSuggest

It's a suggestion for ST above 10 made by D. Weber; if "logarithmic cost" for ST is the goal, I think it's a mighty good suggestion. I'll summarize here with 4e in mind:

Apply a steadily-declining cost for ST as follows:

ST 11-20: 10 pts/+1
ST 21-30: 5 pts/+1
ST 31-70: 2.5 pts/+1
ST 71-100: 5pts/+3 (1.66 pts/+1)
ST 101-200: 1 pt/+1
ST 201-300: 1pt/+2
ST 301-700: 2.5 pts/+10 (1 pt/+4)
ST 701-1000: 5 pts/+30 (1 pt/+6)
ST 1001-2000: 1 pt/+10
ST 2001-3000: 1 pt/+20

... and so on. Look carefully, and you'll see a neat pattern. What's neatest is that costs work out as follows:

ST 10 costs 0 pts
ST 15 costs 50 pts
ST 20 costs 100 pts
ST 30 costs 150 pts
ST 50 costs 200 pts
ST 70 costs 250 pts
ST 100 costs 300 pts

... and so on, where each jump in ST matching a level on the x1.5, x2, x3, x5, x7, x10... scale progression costs a flat 50 points. (Makes ST costs for scaled-up creatures *very* simple.)

Under 4e's handling of ST, every 50 points multiplies ST by about 1.5 and lifting ability by 2; every 300 points multiplies ST by 10 and lifting ability by 100.

What I like about this is that it doesn't mess with the normal handling of ST; it only applies "logarithmic" effects to *cost*. Even better, it doesn't muck with costs in the normal human range. If you're looking for ways to build cosmic-ST heroes on non-cosmic point totals, maybe this is useful for you?

TJA · 10-26-2004, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbone

TJA,
What I like about this is that it doesn't mess with the normal handling of ST; it only applies "logarithmic" effects to *cost*. Even better, it doesn't muck with costs in the normal human range. If you're looking for ways to build cosmic-ST heroes on non-cosmic point totals, maybe this is useful for you?

Ahhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!! :-))))))))))))))))))))

I need to kiss you! :-)

That´s a reply i love - need to think about point-costs, but that progression is GREAT!

300p for 10x, lift 100x
600p for 100x, lift 1000x
900p for 1000x, lift 10000x
right?

This sounds extremy usefull ...

*big grin*

tbone · 10-26-2004, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJA

Ahhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!! :-))))))))))))))))))))

I need to kiss you! :-)

I All-Out Defend. Twice. Spend unused cp. WHATEVER IT TAKES.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJA

300p for 10x, lift 100x
600p for 100x, lift 1000x
900p for 1000x, lift 10000x
right?

No, I believe that would be:

300p for ST 10x, lift 100x
600p for ST 100x, lift 10,000x
900p for ST 1000x, lift 1,000,000x

Such is the nature of 4e ST: you get to *square* the ST multiplier as your lift multiplier!

Great for a Hulk on a budget... but maybe *too much* power for the cost?? Well, that's a question for you, the GM...

10-26-2004, 05:26 AM	#1
TJA Join Date: Oct 2004	New Modification / Advantage Multiplied Strength Each level of Multiplied Strength doubles your level of ST and HP. This costs 100p per level of Multiplied Strength. You can also multiply your level of ST and HP by 1.5 for 58p or multiply your level of ST and HP by 1.25 for 32p. You can freely mix those levels of multiplication. You can modify regular ST (incl. HP), Lifting ST or Striking ST seperately with Multiplied Strength. For Lifting ST and Striking ST, this costs 16p for Multiplication with 1.25, 29p for Multiplication with 1.5 or 50p for Multiplication with 2 per level. Limitation: ST-only. You do not get increased HP from increased ST. This is a -25% limitation and only applicable to regular ST, not Lifting or Striking ST. Examples: A Super with base ST of 12 buys 2 levels of Multiplied ST at 50p each. This gives ST and HP at 27 for a total of 100p. Then he adds one level of Multiplied ST with the limitation ST-only for 75p. This give ST 54 and HP 27 for a total of 175p. The Hulk, with a normal ST of 10, buys 9 levels of Modified ST at 50p each and get a whooping ST and HP of 384 for 450p. What do you think? It feels good to me - would make building Supers (and Immortals :-) much more easy ... I´m not sure that -25% is enought for the limitation ST-only- maybe this should be -50% ?!? Last edited by TJA; 10-26-2004 at 06:48 AM.

10-26-2004, 07:27 AM	#6
TJA Join Date: Oct 2004	Re: New Modification / Advantage Your idea about basically buying damage over Innate Attack at 5p per 1d is fine, so far ... but has problems i cannot solve: Try the Hulk again: Say, we want 40d damage (normaly at around ST 400), this is 200p as an Innate Attack. But this would be Striking ST only ... We want him to lift with ST 400 as well ... The old problem arises again! We want him to have 400 HP as well .... The old problem arises again! There are parts of ST (and HP) that would need massive amount of points into them instead of a leveling/multiplying advantage or modifier. I still think, that such a modifier is more elegant!

10-26-2004, 10:10 AM	#8
tbone Join Date: Aug 2004	Re: New Modification / Advantage TJA, Given what you're looking for, I wonder what you think of the proposal found here: http://www.io.com/~tbone/gurps/GULLI...#STCostSuggest It's a suggestion for ST above 10 made by D. Weber; if "logarithmic cost" for ST is the goal, I think it's a mighty good suggestion. I'll summarize here with 4e in mind: Apply a steadily-declining cost for ST as follows: ST 11-20: 10 pts/+1 ST 21-30: 5 pts/+1 ST 31-70: 2.5 pts/+1 ST 71-100: 5pts/+3 (1.66 pts/+1) ST 101-200: 1 pt/+1 ST 201-300: 1pt/+2 ST 301-700: 2.5 pts/+10 (1 pt/+4) ST 701-1000: 5 pts/+30 (1 pt/+6) ST 1001-2000: 1 pt/+10 ST 2001-3000: 1 pt/+20 ... and so on. Look carefully, and you'll see a neat pattern. What's neatest is that costs work out as follows: ST 10 costs 0 pts ST 15 costs 50 pts ST 20 costs 100 pts ST 30 costs 150 pts ST 50 costs 200 pts ST 70 costs 250 pts ST 100 costs 300 pts ... and so on, where each jump in ST matching a level on the x1.5, x2, x3, x5, x7, x10... scale progression costs a flat 50 points. (Makes ST costs for scaled-up creatures very simple.) Under 4e's handling of ST, every 50 points multiplies ST by about 1.5 and lifting ability by 2; every 300 points multiplies ST by 10 and lifting ability by 100. What I like about this is that it doesn't mess with the normal handling of ST; it only applies "logarithmic" effects to cost. Even better, it doesn't muck with costs in the normal human range. If you're looking for ways to build cosmic-ST heroes on non-cosmic point totals, maybe this is useful for you?