Obscure: Targeting vs. Anti-Targeting

Nedorus · 04-25-2023, 12:00 PM

Just a quick question about Obscure.
Since the Anti-Targeting limitation is just that, a limitation it seems to imply that targeting is usually affected by obscure (in addition to just detection).

Powers p. 65 mentions "heat seeking missiles" and Obscure (Infravision)... that again seems to imply "targeting".

However, "targeting" with the obscured sense (e.g. targeting with vision) is not explicitly mentioned.

What's the consensus here? Is someone benefiting from Obscure harder to hit when the enemy uses the obscured sense for targeting? Are melee attacks included here?

Additional question:
Obscure gives a fixed modifier to "detect" the subject. I would really like to modify this to something that increases (e.g. doubles) existing modifiers (e.g. for darkness).

To be more specific I'd like darkness modifiers to double (max -10) ...

Which trait-modifier would change obscure to work like this? I was thinking of something like "environmental" (Power-Up 8 p. 13) but that works the other way ...

Suggestions welcome...

Varyon · 04-25-2023, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nedorus

However, "targeting" with the obscured sense (e.g. targeting with vision) is not explicitly mentioned.

What's the consensus here? Is someone benefiting from Obscure harder to hit when the enemy uses the obscured sense for targeting? Are melee attacks included here?

I asked about this in another (largely-unrelated) thread; here was probably the best explanation (see the last paragraph of the response). The consensus seems to be that Obscure doesn't count toward attacks (including melee attacks) so long as they are relying on the Obscured sense (typically vision).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nedorus

Obscure gives a fixed modifier to "detect" the subject. I would really like to modify this to something that increases (e.g. doubles) existing modifiers (e.g. for darkness).

To be more specific I'd like darkness modifiers to double (max -10) ...

Which trait-modifier would change obscure to work like this? I was thinking of something like "environmental" (Power-Up 8 p. 13) but that works the other way ...

This would be something like Obscure 1 (Environmental, -1 Darkness or worse) + Obscure 1 (Environmental, -2 Darkness or worse) + Obscure 1 (Environmental, -3 Darkness or worse) + Obscure 1 (Environmental, -4 Darkness or worse) + Obscure 1 (Environmental, -5 Darkness or worse). You could simplify this to Obscure 5 (Environmental, doubles Darkness penalties), with the value of that Limitation being an average of the above 5 Limitations.

EDIT: For example, just throwing some Limitations values out there, let's say something that only applies at a given level of Darkness penalties or worse has a value of (Darkness Penalty)*10% - -10% for -1, -20% for -2, -30% for -3, -40% for -4, and -50% for -5. The average of these is -30%, so we can do this as Obscure 5 (Environmental, doubles Darkness penalties -30%) [7]. If we instead broke it up as above, this would be Obscure 1 (Environmental, -1 Darkness or worse -10%) [1.8] + Obscure 1 (Environmental, -2 Darkness or worse -20%) [1.6] + Obscure 1 (Environmental, -3 Darkness or worse -30%) [1.4] + Obscure 1 (Environmental, -4 Darkness or worse -40%) [1.2] + Obscure 1 (Environmental, -5 Darkness or worse -50%) [1], which also adds up to [7], at least so long as we don't round up until the end.

Nedorus · 04-25-2023, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Varyon

I asked about this in another (largely-unrelated) thread; here was probably the best explanation (see the last paragraph of the response).

Ah, yes that's what I thought it would be but wasn't sure. Tnx!

I'm working on a version of affliction that gives night blindness to anyone looking at the character... It's still WIP but I have this so far:

Affliction 1 [10]
Malediction -1/m [+100%]
Area Effect 4 (32m) [+250%]
Sense-Based (Vision) [-20%]
Emanation [-20%]
Fixed Duration (3min) [+0%]
3x Duration (round to 10min) [+20%]
Based on different Attribute (Perception: Vision) [+20%]

This adds up to a total of 46 points currently.

I want this to be a magic item (based on the Night Shroud from GURPS Classic Magic Items 1) so I would add some gadget limitations to round it off and then make it "buyable with money" with my usual factor ... but it ends up at about 3,5x the cost it had in MI1 ... There they suggest "shape darkness" as a base ... I'll try that next.

Nedorus · 04-25-2023, 02:51 PM

OK, I think I've found a way of doing it.

Inspired by the Generic Universal Eggplant blog on sorcery spells I ended up basing my item on Obscure (Vision)

Obscure (Vision) 5 [10CP]
Stealthy [+100%]
Always on [-50%]
Variable [+5%]
Accessibility (Only in partial Darkness) [-20% ???]
Gadget Limitations - Can be Stolen by QC ST [-30%]
Gadget Limitations - Breakable DR2 [-20%]

It's intended to be a magic item, a light cloak. So here is why I chose the above:
Level: 5 should be enough if the darkness penalty is always doubled ... darkness beyond -5 doesn't need more than 5 obscure levels to make it -10...

Note how I chose not to include "Defensive" as Dark Vision is provided by the cloak as well.

Now you could argue that Obscure is different from darkness and therefore not strictly cumulative and that Dark Vision wouldn't help against it ... well maybe ... but for simplicity's sake ...

Always On: makes sense because you need to take the cloak off to turn off the ability. This is "balanced out" by the fact that someone could put a curse on it where that wouldn't be possible and the fact that you can't control the "variable" limitation.

Variable: this makes it possible to not work at full power, which is what the item is intended to do. The wearer of the cloak can't control this though.

Accessibility: the cloak doesn't do anything if there is more light than -1 darkness... Or is this double dipping?

Gadget Limitations are for it being a magic item instead of an intrinsic ability. A light cloak is listed to be DR 1 and 3 HP as per Cloak skill description B184. And stealing it is possible in many ways but I was assuming the owner was wearing it...

Adding Dark Vision (with Always On and the gadget limitations as well) I end up with a 14 point item which by my usual factor will cost 38.346$ ... that's roughly 9.5% more than the "original" ... I guess there was some inflation between 3rd Edition and 4th (^_^)

Balor Patch · 04-26-2023, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nedorus

Variable: this makes it possible to not work at full power, which is what the item is intended to do. The wearer of the cloak can't control this though.

This is a disadvantage. Rewrite the Accessibility instead.

04-25-2023, 12:00 PM	#1
Nedorus Join Date: May 2021	Obscure: Targeting vs. Anti-Targeting Just a quick question about Obscure. Since the Anti-Targeting limitation is just that, a limitation it seems to imply that targeting is usually affected by obscure (in addition to just detection). Powers p. 65 mentions "heat seeking missiles" and Obscure (Infravision)... that again seems to imply "targeting". However, "targeting" with the obscured sense (e.g. targeting with vision) is not explicitly mentioned. What's the consensus here? Is someone benefiting from Obscure harder to hit when the enemy uses the obscured sense for targeting? Are melee attacks included here? Additional question: Obscure gives a fixed modifier to "detect" the subject. I would really like to modify this to something that increases (e.g. doubles) existing modifiers (e.g. for darkness). To be more specific I'd like darkness modifiers to double (max -10) ... Which trait-modifier would change obscure to work like this? I was thinking of something like "environmental" (Power-Up 8 p. 13) but that works the other way ... Suggestions welcome...

04-25-2023, 02:51 PM	#4
Nedorus Join Date: May 2021	Re: Obscure: Targeting vs. Anti-Targeting OK, I think I've found a way of doing it. Inspired by the Generic Universal Eggplant blog on sorcery spells I ended up basing my item on Obscure (Vision) Obscure (Vision) 5 [10CP] Stealthy [+100%] Always on [-50%] Variable [+5%] Accessibility (Only in partial Darkness) [-20% ???] Gadget Limitations - Can be Stolen by QC ST [-30%] Gadget Limitations - Breakable DR2 [-20%] It's intended to be a magic item, a light cloak. So here is why I chose the above: Level: 5 should be enough if the darkness penalty is always doubled ... darkness beyond -5 doesn't need more than 5 obscure levels to make it -10... Note how I chose not to include "Defensive" as Dark Vision is provided by the cloak as well. Now you could argue that Obscure is different from darkness and therefore not strictly cumulative and that Dark Vision wouldn't help against it ... well maybe ... but for simplicity's sake ... Always On: makes sense because you need to take the cloak off to turn off the ability. This is "balanced out" by the fact that someone could put a curse on it where that wouldn't be possible and the fact that you can't control the "variable" limitation. Variable: this makes it possible to not work at full power, which is what the item is intended to do. The wearer of the cloak can't control this though. Accessibility: the cloak doesn't do anything if there is more light than -1 darkness... Or is this double dipping? Gadget Limitations are for it being a magic item instead of an intrinsic ability. A light cloak is listed to be DR 1 and 3 HP as per Cloak skill description B184. And stealing it is possible in many ways but I was assuming the owner was wearing it... Adding Dark Vision (with Always On and the gadget limitations as well) I end up with a 14 point item which by my usual factor will cost 38.346$ ... that's roughly 9.5% more than the "original" ... I guess there was some inflation between 3rd Edition and 4th (^_^)