combat questions

B9anders · 07-22-2006, 06:03 PM

Two people are in a swordfight. Character B makes a succesful feint in round 1, then in round two uses a rapid strike (obviously a Weapon Master) to hack at Character A caught offguard who fails his parry. Character A (HT 13) gets cut up for 12 points, enough for a major wound and he fails his HT roll and is knockdowned and stunned.

Round 3: Seeing his foe lying prone and having dropped his weapon, Character B goes for the kill with an all-out attack, making one of them a rapid strike. All three hit and Character A, having dropped his sword, has no choice but to try and dodge, albeit at half his normal dodge score as he has less than half his HP left, an additional -4 penalty for being stunned and another -3 penalty for lying prone. He doesn't even bother with a frantic defence. Needless to say, he fails and is hacked up for a massive 28 HP in damage. Character A is lucky and makes his two immediate HT rolls to avoid dying on the spot.

In round 4, Character A gets lucky again, as he makes his HT roll at -2 to stay conscious another HT Roll to avoid being stunned again from a new major wound and makes yet another HT roll to snap out of being stunned. He can now try to move away lying down (fairly hopeless), change posture to kneeling or sitting position, try a frantic all-out defence with his dodge still halved and suffering penalties from lying prone, or reach for his sword and ready it, albeit with a -3 penalty to his Parry for lying prone. Character A does the latter and miraculously (and frantically) manages to make successfully parry another triple whammy from Character B who found the all-out attack and rapid strike from the last round fairly effective.

Round 5, and Character A makes another HT roll to stay conscious, makes use of a change posture action to rise to a sitting position. He is on a roll, as he succesfully makes another frantic triple parry against Character B's all-out attack with rapid strike tactic.

Round 6, Character A makes yet another HT Roll to stay conscious, makes another change posture action to finally stand on his feet and yet again manages to frantically parry Character B's All-Out Attack.

Round 7, Character A is finally standing up, armed and ready to fight on equal terms again. It is all in vain though. Eight HT rolls proved one too many and he fails it this time and falls unconscious. He is thankfully not awake to experience the glee with which Character B chops up his intestines before his heart stops beating.

Am I missing something in this battle? Knockdown and stun seems to be the end of a character in combat. Basically, you are facing four rounds where your opponent can safely go on all-out attack to finish you off, one of which is with a virtually non-existent dodge score, another with no chance of fighting back and two more rounds where he is disadvantaged from lying down and sitting up. Has anyone here ever actually made it through a combat after being knocked down and stunned?

Oh yeah and another question. If battling against two opponents, is it possible to take a feint action succesfully feint both of them in the first round and then in the second round make use of that against both with an all-out attack or rapid strike or can you only feint one opponent at a time?

fredo1 · 07-22-2006, 06:29 PM

I really dont know if you would expect anything less from a weapon master that attacks someone that isnt up to the challenge.:)

B9anders · 07-22-2006, 06:40 PM

isn't up to it?

He made 9 parries in three rounds with some pretty heavy penalties (-3/-2 for lying down and sitting up. added penalties for additional parries per round)! Obviously another weapon master. ;)

fredo1 · 07-22-2006, 08:11 PM

And yet he fails to see the feint and then fails to parry. Some bad luck.

B9anders · 07-22-2006, 08:15 PM

Obviously, Mr B critted on his initial feint. :-p

fredo1 · 07-23-2006, 06:25 AM

There are no criticals in quick contests. Or, at least, so I thought until I went and checked and there is not a single word about that 3rd edition rule. Hmmm... Maybe now in 4th edition there are criticals in quick contests. I really dont know. So, things are now in a new light to me. U cant feint multiple targets unless you have multiple attacks (all out attack and rapid strike dont count).

B9anders · 07-23-2006, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredo1

There are no criticals in quick contests. Or, at least, so I thought until I went and checked and there is not a single word about that 3rd edition rule. Hmmm... Maybe now in 4th edition there are criticals in quick contests. I really dont know. So, things are now in a new light to me. U cant feint multiple targets unless you have multiple attacks (all out attack and rapid strike dont count).

would be good to know about critting. anyone?

Do you have a reference for feinting multiple targets?

Phoenix_Dragon · 07-23-2006, 08:30 AM

Actually, it's even slightly worse than that. In round 4, when he makes his HT roll to recover from stun, a successful roll means he snaps out at the END of his turn. He gets no action in round 4 either way. This is why it's safe to AoA a stunned person; even if they un-stun, they won't be able to act before your next turn. However, if he un-stunned on his first action after being stunned, the other combatant would not get the "free" turn to AoA, because the downed combatant -could- act on his next action, and the downed combatant wouldn't suffer the -4 defence for stun.

However, to balance that, you can go from kneeling to standing as your "step" for any action that allows it.

Overall, though... Yes, stun is very nasty. But you know, taking half your hitpoints in one blow is, you know, kinda bad. After taking a 12 HP wound, ANY human should be significantly impared. That's worse than an average .45 to the (non-vital) torso.

But yes, I've had PCs survive knockdown and stunning in solo fights. Repeatedly. In situations they should have likely died, and against opponents that didn't hold back at all. Especially if they recover from stun the first turn, I've seen them forgo defense to get a killing blow in, knowing they could probably survive an AoA (Tank tactics), or throw everything into a defense to give them time to get up (AoD, frantic, dodge-and-retreat, and any special tricks they might have; Not -great-, but better than a sword in the gut!) Though you know what the number one survival aid is when you get knocked down/stunned? Same as in real life. A good friend to back you up! :>

Gudiomen · 07-23-2006, 09:46 AM

Forgive my sarcasm, but If you have your belly split in half and fall prone and stunned to the ground, that's pretty much the end of any battle. Yes the rules are hard and gritty. I personally like this. Also consider that with a luck strike (instead of trying to get up) character A could have done pretty much as much damage. An AoA with deceptive strike would be a fovorite, or even a regular AoA Strong, since having taken AoA's himself, character B was defenseless for 3 turns and character A did not take advantage of this and insited on getting completely on his feet. He could have also chopped a leg off with decent chances.

As for your second question: feinting two oponents on 1 turn and then attacking them both on the next. No, you cant. Not with a single feint. If you make 2 feints, 1 for each though...

Digren Kaellise · 07-23-2006, 10:05 AM

If Character A is also a weapon master, does he not have Ground Fighting too? If this is a cinematic advanture, does he not have a spare character point that he can use to reduced a blow in the second round to one point?

I have also allowed acrobatics rolls (at a penalty) for a prone character to move more than would normally be allowed, and sometimes to shave a second off of rising to his feet. This is very cinematic, but is appropriate in some situations.

07-22-2006, 06:03 PM	#1
B9anders Join Date: May 2006 Location: Denmark	combat questions Two people are in a swordfight. Character B makes a succesful feint in round 1, then in round two uses a rapid strike (obviously a Weapon Master) to hack at Character A caught offguard who fails his parry. Character A (HT 13) gets cut up for 12 points, enough for a major wound and he fails his HT roll and is knockdowned and stunned. Round 3: Seeing his foe lying prone and having dropped his weapon, Character B goes for the kill with an all-out attack, making one of them a rapid strike. All three hit and Character A, having dropped his sword, has no choice but to try and dodge, albeit at half his normal dodge score as he has less than half his HP left, an additional -4 penalty for being stunned and another -3 penalty for lying prone. He doesn't even bother with a frantic defence. Needless to say, he fails and is hacked up for a massive 28 HP in damage. Character A is lucky and makes his two immediate HT rolls to avoid dying on the spot. In round 4, Character A gets lucky again, as he makes his HT roll at -2 to stay conscious another HT Roll to avoid being stunned again from a new major wound and makes yet another HT roll to snap out of being stunned. He can now try to move away lying down (fairly hopeless), change posture to kneeling or sitting position, try a frantic all-out defence with his dodge still halved and suffering penalties from lying prone, or reach for his sword and ready it, albeit with a -3 penalty to his Parry for lying prone. Character A does the latter and miraculously (and frantically) manages to make successfully parry another triple whammy from Character B who found the all-out attack and rapid strike from the last round fairly effective. Round 5, and Character A makes another HT roll to stay conscious, makes use of a change posture action to rise to a sitting position. He is on a roll, as he succesfully makes another frantic triple parry against Character B's all-out attack with rapid strike tactic. Round 6, Character A makes yet another HT Roll to stay conscious, makes another change posture action to finally stand on his feet and yet again manages to frantically parry Character B's All-Out Attack. Round 7, Character A is finally standing up, armed and ready to fight on equal terms again. It is all in vain though. Eight HT rolls proved one too many and he fails it this time and falls unconscious. He is thankfully not awake to experience the glee with which Character B chops up his intestines before his heart stops beating. Am I missing something in this battle? Knockdown and stun seems to be the end of a character in combat. Basically, you are facing four rounds where your opponent can safely go on all-out attack to finish you off, one of which is with a virtually non-existent dodge score, another with no chance of fighting back and two more rounds where he is disadvantaged from lying down and sitting up. Has anyone here ever actually made it through a combat after being knocked down and stunned? Oh yeah and another question. If battling against two opponents, is it possible to take a feint action succesfully feint both of them in the first round and then in the second round make use of that against both with an all-out attack or rapid strike or can you only feint one opponent at a time? Last edited by B9anders; 07-22-2006 at 06:07 PM.

07-22-2006, 06:29 PM	#2
fredo1 Join Date: Jul 2006	Re: combat questions I really dont know if you would expect anything less from a weapon master that attacks someone that isnt up to the challenge.:)

07-22-2006, 06:40 PM	#3
B9anders Join Date: May 2006 Location: Denmark	Re: combat questions isn't up to it? He made 9 parries in three rounds with some pretty heavy penalties (-3/-2 for lying down and sitting up. added penalties for additional parries per round)! Obviously another weapon master. ;)

07-22-2006, 08:11 PM	#4
fredo1 Join Date: Jul 2006	Re: combat questions And yet he fails to see the feint and then fails to parry. Some bad luck.

07-22-2006, 08:15 PM	#5
B9anders Join Date: May 2006 Location: Denmark	Re: combat questions Obviously, Mr B critted on his initial feint. :-p

07-23-2006, 06:25 AM	#6
fredo1 Join Date: Jul 2006	Re: combat questions There are no criticals in quick contests. Or, at least, so I thought until I went and checked and there is not a single word about that 3rd edition rule. Hmmm... Maybe now in 4th edition there are criticals in quick contests. I really dont know. So, things are now in a new light to me. U cant feint multiple targets unless you have multiple attacks (all out attack and rapid strike dont count). Last edited by fredo1; 07-23-2006 at 07:34 AM.

07-23-2006, 08:30 AM	#8
Phoenix_Dragon Join Date: Apr 2005	Re: combat questions Actually, it's even slightly worse than that. In round 4, when he makes his HT roll to recover from stun, a successful roll means he snaps out at the END of his turn. He gets no action in round 4 either way. This is why it's safe to AoA a stunned person; even if they un-stun, they won't be able to act before your next turn. However, if he un-stunned on his first action after being stunned, the other combatant would not get the "free" turn to AoA, because the downed combatant -could- act on his next action, and the downed combatant wouldn't suffer the -4 defence for stun. However, to balance that, you can go from kneeling to standing as your "step" for any action that allows it. Overall, though... Yes, stun is very nasty. But you know, taking half your hitpoints in one blow is, you know, kinda bad. After taking a 12 HP wound, ANY human should be significantly impared. That's worse than an average .45 to the (non-vital) torso. But yes, I've had PCs survive knockdown and stunning in solo fights. Repeatedly. In situations they should have likely died, and against opponents that didn't hold back at all. Especially if they recover from stun the first turn, I've seen them forgo defense to get a killing blow in, knowing they could probably survive an AoA (Tank tactics), or throw everything into a defense to give them time to get up (AoD, frantic, dodge-and-retreat, and any special tricks they might have; Not -great-, but better than a sword in the gut!) Though you know what the number one survival aid is when you get knocked down/stunned? Same as in real life. A good friend to back you up! :>

07-23-2006, 09:46 AM	#9
Gudiomen Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: in your pocket, stealing all your change	Re: combat questions Forgive my sarcasm, but If you have your belly split in half and fall prone and stunned to the ground, that's pretty much the end of any battle. Yes the rules are hard and gritty. I personally like this. Also consider that with a luck strike (instead of trying to get up) character A could have done pretty much as much damage. An AoA with deceptive strike would be a fovorite, or even a regular AoA Strong, since having taken AoA's himself, character B was defenseless for 3 turns and character A did not take advantage of this and insited on getting completely on his feet. He could have also chopped a leg off with decent chances. As for your second question: feinting two oponents on 1 turn and then attacking them both on the next. No, you cant. Not with a single feint. If you make 2 feints, 1 for each though...

07-23-2006, 10:05 AM	#10
Digren Kaellise Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Pflugerville, Texas	Re: combat questions If Character A is also a weapon master, does he not have Ground Fighting too? If this is a cinematic advanture, does he not have a spare character point that he can use to reduced a blow in the second round to one point? I have also allowed acrobatics rolls (at a penalty) for a prone character to move more than would normally be allowed, and sometimes to shave a second off of rising to his feet. This is very cinematic, but is appropriate in some situations.