Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise

[Doktor Teufel]

Expertly explained . . . I believe that resolves all of my issues.

Thank you, Dr. Kromm!

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Smith waits until the enemy vehicles are within the kill zone, then gives the order. Claymores detonate. MGs bark. Rifles fire. The platoon's crack shot, PFC Pyle, drills the enemy leader through the helmet. Nobody on the opposing side gets any chance to dive for cover against this initial onslaught.

FWIW when we were practicing this sort of thing the 'order' to fire would generally be the claymores detonating or the MG opening up (after the sergeant tapped the relevant soldier on the sholder). That way there's no worries about the enemy somehow reacting to the shouted order before your guys can (it shouldn't happen, but you never know). It also gets round concerns about guys who don't hear the order and assume the firing is therefore premature and don't join in.

Smith could roll 1+6 = 7 against the enemy's 6+2 = 8 . . . it's a 2.8% chance, but it could happen. The enemy leader leaps into action and barks the order for a planned response! The enemy drivers veer off left and right at speed, men diving out facing the sides of the road. Some actually leave the kill zone,

And thus run into the cut-off group's fire zone and get gunned down by them. :)

while others are prone, and one of Smith's squads has to dive out of the path of an unmanned Jeep coming in at 30 mph. Smith has to spend a few seconds giving orders. Jones is yelling at his men to move that MG. The enemy still has to find cover that's 15 yards away, take time to spot their attackers, and fire back at a slightly elevated target that has cover . . . but they get a few seconds to do this without being fired on at +1. They're still at -8 if they choose to shoot, though.

And then they find the cover has punji stakes and trip-wired mines in it. :)

Things could be worse. The GM could give far less than +4 to Smith -- perhaps the enemy had better scouts, or a thermograph, or even a warning from an aircraft. Then the enemy leader is expecting an ambush and ready for it. All Smith controls is where, not what. He could actually find the tables turned when he fires that first shot, because the response could be a barrage of grenade launcher fire, or even artillery support.

Or worse, the enemy sees the ambush from outside it, piles out of their vehicles, and assaults from the flank, rolling up the ambushers. This is the worst nightmare of people setting prepared ambushes, BTW.

[fredo1]

Originally Posted by Kromm

An example might look like this:

1st Platoon digs in around a barren stretch of road that LT Smith knows the enemy must traverse (successful roll against Smith's Tactics-12). SFC Jones has them place Claymores and set up MGs on high ground overlooking the road, and hide their positions with scrub and netting (successful roll against Jones' Tactics-14). The GM gives them +1 for equipment (nets and facepaint) and +2 more for having lots of time. The average trooper has Camouflage-12 (it's an Easy skill), so they roll against 15.

The enemy comes zooming up the road. Their scout is good -- Observation-15 -- and has binoculars (+3), but he's scanning cover that's 15 yards offroad, from a moving Jeep that's doing 30mph. He has a speed/range penalty of -7, making his roll 11. It's a Quick Contest of 11 vs. 15 to spot the enemy, and he loses by 4.

Smith waits until the enemy vehicles are within the kill zone, then gives the order. Claymores detonate. MGs bark. Rifles fire. The platoon's crack shot, PFC Pyle, drills the enemy leader through the helmet. Nobody on the opposing side gets any chance to dive for cover against this initial onslaught.

Now we check for surprise. The GM rules that becaue the enemy had a scout and knew to expect hostiles in the area, this can't be total surprise. Both sides roll 1d for partial surprise. There's almost certainly somebody with Combat Reflexes on both sides: +1. Tactics skill is evenly matched, and both sides have it: +1. The now-leaderless enemy is at -2 for losing their CO. And the GM assesses Smith and friends +4 because the enemy lost the initial Quick Contest of Observation vs. Camouflage by that much, and it's a good measure of relative alertness. So Smith rolls 1d+6 while the enemy rolls 1d. Smith of course wins, and the enemy takes fire for several more seconds before they can react.

Let's say Pyle missed his shot. Then Smith would roll 1d+6 against the enemy's 1d+2.

Smith could roll 1+6 = 7 against the enemy's 5+2 = 7, or 2+6 = 8 against the enemy's 6+2 = 8. In that case, there are no surprise attacks. The enemy still has to find cover that's 15 yards away, take time to spot their attackers, and fire back at a slightly elevated target that has cover, at a -8 or so. Smith and pals have only the -5 for range, and will be shooting aimed (+5 for assault rifles and LMGs) and braced (+1) at visible targets -- and probably rolling at +1 or so.

Smith could roll 1+6 = 7 against the enemy's 6+2 = 8 . . . it's a 2.8% chance, but it could happen. The enemy leader leaps into action and barks the order for a planned response! The enemy drivers veer off left and right at speed, men diving out facing the sides of the road. Some actually leave the kill zone, while others are prone, and one of Smith's squads has to dive out of the path of an unmanned Jeep coming in at 30 mph. Smith has to spend a few seconds giving orders. Jones is yelling at his men to move that MG. The enemy still has to find cover that's 15 yards away, take time to spot their attackers, and fire back at a slightly elevated target that has cover . . . but they get a few seconds to do this without being fired on at +1. They're still at -8 if they choose to shoot, though.

Things could be worse. The GM could give far less than +4 to Smith -- perhaps the enemy had better scouts, or a thermograph, or even a warning from an aircraft. Then the enemy leader is expecting an ambush and ready for it. All Smith controls is where, not what. He could actually find the tables turned when he fires that first shot, because the response could be a barrage of grenade launcher fire, or even artillery support.

Things could be better. Smith, Jones, Pyle, et al. might be crack troopers with Combat Reflexes, high Tactics, better IQ, etc., and/or the enemy could be green recruits or REMFs with useless training, for up to +3 more on Smith's roll. Or this could be 50 klicks behind the lines, in an area the enemy considers secure, and the convoy could be manned by the tired and wounded leaving the combat zone. In that case, the GM might use total surprise.

I would like that same example with a difference that guy on a jeep spots the ambush.

Thank you in advance, Dr. Kromm

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Rupert

FWIW when we were practicing this sort of thing the 'order' to fire would generally be the claymores detonating or the MG opening up (after the sergeant tapped the relevant soldier on the sholder).

I bow to experience, although I'll note that there are plenty of uptight armies out there that rely on getting an actual verbal order for everything. Usually, they're not the very well-trained sort . . .

Originally Posted by Rupert

And thus run into the cut-off group's fire zone and get gunned down by them. :)

Yeah, I left out that little detail. At GURPS' level of resolution, the killing group(s) and cut-off group are just one big force, and their collective zones of responsibility are a single killing zone. Setting this up right is a function of Tactics, and why Tactics figures into every other aspect of my explanation. Gaming it out at a higher resolution would make my example a lot longer. :)

[Wedhro]

Originally Posted by Doktor Teufel

First of all, Total Surprise is very difficult to achieve. To catch adventurers and adventurer-type NPCs completely by surprise, you either have to do something completely zany, unexpected and off-the-wall (werewolves bursting into the public library), or get them when they're sleeping or otherwise incredibly vulnerable.

I totally agree with you, so I tweaked a little bit the partial suprise thing starting from the sentence "when the defenders were expecting trouble":
I treat an ambush or similar surprise situation as a 'partial suprise' only if my players told me in advance that they are expecting that specific kind of danger, or if the surprise situation is predictable given the place they are travelling along, the task they are carrying out etc... otherwise I treat it as 'total surprise'.

Example: a group of adventurers are following the tracks of a renegade mercenary troop they were ordered to capture; the leader of the PCs knows that the mercs are aware of being pursued, and that the wood they are walking in is plagued by flocks of blood-sucking bats. If the goup is ambushed by the mercs or attacked by bats this is partial surprise, but if a tiger suddenly leaps in front of them by the bushes, or they are attacked by elf archers, well, this is total surprise to me!

[fredo1]

Originally Posted by Wedhro

If the goup is ambushed by the mercs or attacked by bats this is partial surprise, but if a tiger suddenly leaps in front of them by the bushes, or they are attacked by elf archers, well, this is total surprise to me!

Thats still a partial surprise. The difference between total and partial surprise is that you are totaly surprised when strolling along a road (perhaps even singing :) ) and a ninja/tiger/random bad intentioned thing jumps from the bushes and when you are cautiously walking along the road and waiting for something to happen (hence sense rolls). If you know there are bad things in the woods, you are hardly surprised when bad things jump at you.:)

[Doktor Teufel]

Everyone has good points, and of course none of them provide concrete answers (it's a matter of taste, seems like). I like Wedhro's method the best, because it is very clean and well-defined, but that doesn't mean anyone else's opinions are anny less valid.

I think that the status of any two parties can be described as on of the five choices below, EXCEPT for planned ambushes! They are a special case.

READINESS OF GROUP

• Members are all quite wary and strongly suspect that an attack is imminent.
• Members are alert to their surroundings and prepared to react to events.
• Members are going about their business, not especially relaxed or wary.
• Members are relaxed and aren't even thinking about possible dangers.
• Members are asleep or otherwise totally unprepared for an attack.

Using that list, all the rules for Surprise make sense if you compare the readiness of the two groups. The fuzziness comes when you consider actual ambushes. Ambushes are a special case because it's the one time the would-be attackers have dug in and actually planned a sneak attack on an enemy. I think they should be handled as total surprise if none of the defenders notice the amush before the ambush is sprung, no matter HOW alert the defenders are. If the defenders DO catch the ambush before it is sprung, then you would proceed normally (both groups would be classified then as "Members are all quite wary and strongly suspect that an attack is imminent.")

I just answered my own question, I think.

[zorg]

In an Amush type situation, surprise doesn't necessarily even come up. The ambushers simply use Wait maneuvers and/or Opportunity Fire. As soon as the PCs enter withing range, the guns start shooting (or the Orcs use Move and Attack maneuvers). Either way, the ambushed party doesn't get to act because this turn, they spent their actions already - they used a Move maneuver to walk into the trap. So the attacker will get a full turn for free (unless thye're spotted, of course) no matter how high the victims reflexes are.
(as an aside, if the ambushed party isn't even aware of the attack - sudden fire from a hidden machine gun encampment - then they won't get Active Defenses, either).

In the second turn, the ambushed party may very well be surprised (or not, if liberally equipped with Combat Reflexes or ETS), partially or otherwise.

In other words:
Turn 1
PCs: walk into a chasm, failing all Per rolls.
Orcs: start firing crossbows from their hiding places. PCs don't get Active Defense or any other actionbs - they were busy "walking into the chasm"

Turn 2
PCs: check for surprise, if unsurprised, dive for cover
Orcs: continue shooting, this time however talking into account Active Defenses for unsurprised targets

[Collective_Restraint]

Originally Posted by Doktor Teufel

Partial Surprise is odd. If the PCs (or adventurer-grade NPCs) are wary and alert, there is simply no way to catch them totally by surprise. So let's say a bunch of enemy NPCs have set up an ambush for the PCs. The PCs don't notice them at all, but because they're wary, when the NPCs pop out of their hiding places to start shooting, both sides roll initiative.

That means that if attackers have an ambush set up and a wary group walks into the trap, the attackers could somehow lose initiative and the ones the ambushers intended to attack would end up getting one or more free turns instead!

That makes no sense to me. I can deal with the defenders getting to act normally, but getting to act BEFORE the ambushers? Wow.

Is there something I'm missing?

Hi there,

the way I see it, I don't think it would make sense to make sides roll in the case of an ambush, I would make the ambushers win but the ambushees be affected by partial surprise (mental stun but IQ rolls with a +1 per additionnal attempt). I think you make both sides roll in case both groups are surprised to see which side recovers first from surprise. Example : You open a door of a room where you thought it was empty only to come face to face with a group of goblins which weren't expecting you and didn't hear you. Like you too, I don't think it would make sense for the defenders to act before the ambushers.