Question about character attribute totals and break downs among PCs?

[phiwum]

If the average stat for a character is 15 or so, then much of the time, he fails only on the auto-fail results (16+). There are occasional negative modifiers, especially in combat, but such high attributes really do sound like a dull game.

It doesn't mean these characters couldn't be killed, but it does sound like the drama of the game has rather changed.

Still, you've played with such high attributes and I haven't, so if you say it's still a decent game...

[TippetsTX]

Plenty of non-draconian, completely reasonable ways to whittle down high stats. At a certain point, though, opponents got harder to hit. We had a clever GM who created some advanced defensive capabilities requiring 4-die rolls 'to hit' instead of 3.

And don't forget, even supermen can fall in TFT if the odds are 3-on-1 or higher.

[Steve Plambeck]

Yeah, I'd think never changing the "knock down" point, no matter what a figure's attributes (and talents) goes a long way in moderating the effects of super-heroes. 8 hits knocks you down, period.

"Hah! Your measly 8 hits don't hurt me!"

"No, but now you're on your butt. Let's see what we can all do to you, at +4 DX, while you take a turn to get up. Bet that is gonna hurt!"

Keep double damage for pole weapon charge attacks, and take the 3d6 lid off missile spells, and I imagine you'll see a lot less attribute bloat <evil grin>

It was probably a combination of those three things that warded off any attribute bloat during my group's 20 year run.

And no, as was suggested, we weren't stingy with the XP. In fact we never played without the original rule of 1 XP for every hit damage doled out or taken, with the DX bonus for the kill. And 1 XP for every ST point spent on spell casting. And XP for role playing as well of course. Figures often earned 100 XP in one play session. They just often didn't live long enough to cash in all the XP they were earning <evil grin #2>

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by phiwum

If the average stat for a character is 15 or so, then much of the time, he fails only on the auto-fail results (16+). There are occasional negative modifiers, especially in combat, but such high attributes really do sound like a dull game.

It doesn't mean these characters couldn't be killed, but it does sound like the drama of the game has rather changed.

Still, you've played with such high attributes and I haven't, so if you say it's still a decent game...

It's a balancing act for certain. The balance is easier for larger scale encounters/battles. Smaller encounters may require some GM declarations/exclusions of character experience at either end of the spectrum. Perhaps, the GM can give them a mission that can only have a chance at being successful if they bring their more experienced characters to the session. Or, you can state an attribute point max/minimum as the scenario parameters. I think that's why went went for larger scale battles. It was a chance for each player to bring out just about all of their characters for a session.

If one were to look at the original EXP/Attribute costs and apply the EXP award guidelines in ITL, attribute bloat and super hero glut will not be common at all. This is especially true since there are new avenues in which to spend EXP. You can spend them on talents at 500 per point. You can charge a staff at 200 per point. The break point for it to become more economical in character development occurs between 36 and 40 attributes in Classic TFT and a little lower in Legacy TFT. At that point, the player has three ways to spend his EXP and gaining attributes is the most expensive.

A GM can find ways to single out the more experienced characters in a group. It can teach lessons to the lesser characters that are present.

All of what I said is predicated on the EXP award guidelines in Legacy ITL of 50 to 100 per session with some GM variance allowed for the situation. I would believe that the top limit for any character, no matter how miraculous their play was, wouldn't get over 200 EXP. But, that's just me.

So, in conclusion, I assert that if the GM doesn't throw out EXP like candy, the need for the draconian lie of the current Legacy ITL EXP Cost/Attribute is not needed. that lie is that they really wanted to ban all characters above an attribute total of 40 but were too weak to state it. Instead, they created a geometric progression of doubling for each point on which they could blame their fun police tendencies.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

Plenty of non-draconian, completely reasonable ways to whittle down high stats. At a certain point, though, opponents got harder to hit. We had a clever GM who created some advanced defensive capabilities requiring 4-die rolls 'to hit' instead of 3.

And don't forget, even supermen can fall in TFT if the odds are 3-on-1 or higher.

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

Yeah, I'd think never changing the "knock down" point, no matter what a figure's attributes (and talents) goes a long way in moderating the effects of super-heroes. 8 hits knocks you down, period.

"Hah! Your measly 8 hits don't hurt me!"

"No, but now you're on your butt. Let's see what we can all do to you, at +4 DX, while you take a turn to get up. Bet that is gonna hurt!"

Keep double damage for pole weapon charge attacks, and take the 3d6 lid off missile spells, and I imagine you'll see a lot less attribute bloat <evil grin>

It was probably a combination of those three things that warded off any attribute bloat during my group's 20 year run.

And no, as was suggested, we weren't stingy with the XP. In fact we never played without the original rule of 1 XP for every hit damage doled out or taken, with the DX bonus for the kill. And 1 XP for every ST point spent on spell casting. And XP for role playing as well of course. Figures often earned 100 XP in one play session. They just often didn't live long enough to cash in all the XP they were earning <evil grin #2>

I concur with both posts. A GM has to grow in his abilities to accommodate the array of characters that participate in their games. Sometime, one has to get brutal and other times, crafty.

Two of the players in our group became very openly overconfident stating that I couldn't come up with anything that could beat them. Keep in mind, they were taking casualties in their squads/groups during our play and their more experienced characters weren't coming out completely unscathed either even though they were surviving. I had designed the scenarios such that some die rolls could make it go either way and they were reaping the benefits of my lack of luck with the dice. Well...their next encounter after mouthing off like that didn't go so well for them. Let's say that they were humbled a bit. It's all about balancing it out to where they are successful (and maybe not) while still paying a big price for it. To me, that is part of the fun factor.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

Yeah, I'd think never changing the "knock down" point, no matter what a figure's attributes (and talents) goes a long way in moderating the effects of super-heroes. 8 hits knocks you down, period.

Actually, I think some house rules around that number improve things, as I discuss here. A talent that increases the knock-down point is highly desirable from my point of view. There are so many talents that privilege high DX or IQ that something out there for the high ST characters seems only reasonable, especially since RAW already allows very high-ST figures to withstand more damage before falling (ITL 118). If 10 is average human ST, ST 15 is one quarter of the way from there to that of a ST 30 figure who falls at 16 points of damage, so why not allow a talent that lets them not fall down until suffering 25% more hits?

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by Shostak

Actually, I think some house rules around that number improve things, as I discuss here. A talent that increases the knock-down point is highly desirable from my point of view. There are so many talents that privilege high DX or IQ that something out there for the high ST characters seems only reasonable, especially since RAW already allows very high-ST figures to withstand more damage before falling (ITL 118). If 10 is average human ST, ST 15 is one quarter of the way from there to that of a ST 30 figure who falls at 16 points of damage, so why not allow a talent that lets them not fall down until suffering 25% more hits?

Such a talent is interesting point to ponder. I'm amazed that it's not included in Unarmed Combat skills.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN

Such a talent is interesting point to ponder. I'm amazed that it's not included in Unarmed Combat skills.

Thanks, Bill. I think the UC talents are powerful enough as-is, though.

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by Shostak

A talent that increases the knock-down point is highly desirable from my point of view.

I do agree with that -- I'd rather have and keep that, making a change elsewhere if needed to modulate attribute bloat (which I don't see as a problem anyway).

I'd actually prefer to see more talents of that type, talents that confer tactical advantages other than more DX adjustments -- don't we have enough DX adjustments already?

And on another note, talents shouldn't have DX prerequisites that then in turn grant DX bonuses. It's double dipping of a sort. More honest to say my DX isn't good enough to do this particular thing without concentrated study and practice of this one thing. Shouldn't have to improve overall DX to improve DX at one thing. It stops being a trade off when the reward for something is more of the same something.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

And on another note, talents shouldn't have DX prerequisites that then in turn grant DX bonuses. It's double dipping of a sort. More honest to say my DX isn't good enough to do this particular thing without concentrated study and practice of this one thing. Shouldn't have to improve overall DX to improve DX at one thing. It stops being a trade off when the reward for something is more of the same something.

Which talents have a DX prerequisite and grants DX bonuses?

The weapons expertise talents don't grant bonuses. The upper level of UC sort of does, insofar as the DX penalty for kicking gets lower. Similarly, Two Weapons kind of does, since it lowers the penalty for using two weapons in an attack and has a DX penalty. Hence, Fencing also sort of counts.

Are these reduced penalties what you have in mind or am I missing other examples?