Question about character attribute totals and break downs among PCs?

[Bill_in_IN]

With the new TFT Legacy system being fairly young (<4years), I am curious about the general break down of attribute totals of playing characters. The numbers for which I'm asking need not be exact. Rough estimates are enough for this conversation. I'm not interested in NPCs. They are usually created to facilitate game play.

1. How long has your group played the New TFT?

2. What is the rough break down of PCs with respect to race? (i.e. 50% human, 25% elf, etc,)

3. What is the rough break down of attribute totals for the PCs in your group? (i.e. 80% 32-35, 15% 36-38, 3% 39-40, 41 or greater 2%)

4. What is the highest attribute total among the PCs in your group and what character type/race applies to them?

The reason that I ask these questions is that from an original TFT player's perspective, over the course of 15 years, we had many characters with attribute totals approaching 50 and a much smaller number above that. However, it took years of playing to get them there and it was challenging as a GM to keep them challenged while still accommodating characters with lower attribute totals. I'm interested in how the new rules with respect to EXP cost toward attributes and now talents/spells is affecting the overall break down of PCs.

[Shostak]

The current campaigns I've been GMing are about 4 years old, but we've taken some breaks to play some other games. Most of the original characters (all human but one) are now 36 points, with a couple up at 38 (human). XP/session is usually between 30 and 70.

[Steve Plambeck]

I haven't had a group since Legacy came out, but Shostak's example is what I would have predicted -- and feared. Only gaining on average 1 Attribute Point per year per character is terribly slow. Used to dole out the same thing, 30 to 70 XP per game session, and when we played once a month PCs would gain 2 to 3 new Attribute points per year. And visible character progress is surely supposed to be part of the fun.

For this reason alone I could never use the Legacy rules as written.

[phiwum]

I dole out anywhere from 50 to 100XP, occasionally a bit more. The oldest characters in my campaign are 36pt, maybe one 37pt. We started playing back in late August, 2020, with a few breaks last summer.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

Only gaining on average 1 Attribute Point per year per character is terribly slow.

I admit to being parsimonious with XP and won’t be surprised if others’ games feature faster-paced advancement.

[Bill_in_IN]

Thanks for the replies but I would still like to see more.

After running an EXP vs. Attribute increase comparison between the original TFT and the New TFT, the difference couldn't be more obvious. I know that they wanted to combat attribute bloat promoted by the original system but, it obvious that they have replaced it with attribute stall and talent at stalled level bloat. To me, neither is truly desirable but, at least, I new how to manage it within the original system.

In the original system, it took a total of 625 EXP to get to an attribute total of 36. This is where both systems are fairly equal because in the new TFT it takes 700 EXP. From that point on it diverges at such an large rate that the new system makes the original system non-existent on the same chart after an attribute total of 40. Per the EXP award suggestions given in the new ITL, it is almost impossible for a character to increase attributes after that point. While I agree that it should be difficult to increase attributes as their total increases, the new TFT system overcompensated to the point that it is completely stifling with respect to overall character development. A character must start at a high IQ at the expense of ST and DX (which severely impacts survival probability) so that they can increase their IQ to allow their final goal of development. This results in a character that is very talented but so weak that they can only combat the small nuisance creatures with no chance of every improving upon that situation.

Later on, I can go into details to support what I said above. Yes, I realize that in the new system one can spend EXP on Attributes and talents/spells as opposed to just attributes like the original system. In order to keep the game fun with respect to character development and not stifling, It would seem that a better medium Medium EXP/Attribute cost system could have been developed. Perhaps that would be a good topic for the House Rules Forum but, I would like to see more discussion here before I take it there.

In the end, I assert that the attribute bloat of the original system was traded for Attribute stall and talent/spell bloat at an IQ cap. Neither is a good thing for the game system with respect to character development and the fun aspect that it provided within TFT. However, I did know how to deal with it in the original system and it didn't have such a stifling quality to it.

[TippetsTX]

Check out several threads in the House Rules Forum for alternate XP schemes.

Here's mine...
https://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=160193

(Replacing the default schedule was the first change I made, but you'll notice that it evolved during those first couple years)

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

Check out several threads in the House Rules Forum for alternate XP schemes.

Here's mine...
https://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=160193

(Replacing the default schedule was the first change I made, but you'll notice that it evolved during those first couple years)

Thanks.

I came into knowledge of the new TFT reelase and this forum rather late. I was sure that this had not gone unnoticed.

[hcobb]

You need to reach up to that "stall point" before you get four attributes different between the two systems:
https://www.hcobb.com/tft/legacy_first.html#XP
The big difference is that adding additional talents is much less expensive for high attribute characters, reducing the only advantage that heroes used to have.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by hcobb

You need to reach up to that "stall point" before you get four attributes different between the two systems:
https://www.hcobb.com/tft/legacy_first.html#XP
The big difference is that adding additional talents is much less expensive for high attribute characters, reducing the only advantage that heroes used to have.

But it doesn't change the fact that the attribute stall point is there and very real. Again, trading attribute bloat for talent/spell bloat at a stalled IQ level. If one were to generate a character with a full character development in mind that requires higher IQs, such as Unarmed Combat 5 talent or Staff 5 Spell, one would have to start the character at very high IQs so that they could achieve the needed IQ before the stall occurred. Even if that is to be achieved the UC 5 may not be attainable because they also have to achieve a DX of 14 and a ST of 12. This requires a minimum attribute total of 40. While this is attainable via the current system if they play 83 to 166 sessions averaging 50 to 100 EXP earned. One would have to start the character in a near optimum beginning set of attributes and add to them in specific sequence while not learning any new talents. Only then can they start learning their UC talents which would be a total of which is 5500 more EXP for a total of 13800 which equates to 138 to 276 sessions--even more with a stingy GM. The same would apply to a Wizard with ST 8 DX 12 IQ 20.

I will take this as a challenge to make work in the new system but I still say that they got carried away with NERFing of the original TFT. I do like the dynamic that being able to spend EXP on talents/spells. the addition of that alone would have mitigated the attribute bloat from the original TFT. All character development is now limited to growth within 38 to 40 attribute totals as opposed to about 10 points higher. That's a 20% NERF right there. The only saving grace is that characters can spend 500 to 2000 EXP on new talents at their capped off IQ.