Two-weapons and club

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by hcobb

The main current nerf for the club is that you can't get a fine edge or advanced talents for it.


ST 6 character with the Knife talent does 1d-1 with dagger or one-handed club, but in addition the dagger allows:

• Very cheap very fine weapons for 1d+1 attacks
• Weapon expertise to boost that up to 1d+2 with shrewd blows, etc.
• And a built in partial two-weapons attack.
• And the daggers weigh much less.

That's along the lines I was thinking. I was also thinking that the fact that damage doesn't scale up with club nearly as fast as with other weapons matters to a lot of folk -- though perhaps less so to Henry.

To be fair, the fact that a club can do *better* damage than other weapons at low ST (when wielded two-handed) is worth pointing out.

I've decided club expertise is right out, that a club is too crude for that. However, I've decided to allow Two Weapons at a cost of 3 talent points, where the extra point involves the extra work to become skilled with the crude weapon.

[hcobb]

The uber talent for club is of course Thrown Weapons, as they hurt more than javelins.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by phiwum

I've decided club expertise is right out, that a club is too crude for that.

Hmmm, I think it's more about user than the weapon.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by Shostak

Hmmm, I think it's more about user than the weapon.

Sheleli talent?

It's a club. A nice one but it's a club. Just like a good baseball bat.

A martial artist can incorporate just about anything to be a weapon.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN

A martial artist can incorporate just about anything to be a weapon.

That's exactly my point. Weapon Mastery should be allowable with any weapon for which one bought the talent, even if that weapon is just a stick.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Shostak

That's exactly my point. Weapon Mastery should be allowable with any weapon for which one bought the talent, even if that weapon is just a stick.

Oh, it's a fair point, but a club is not well-balanced, I'd imagine. We're talking about found items, barely fashioned for their purpose at all.

Surely, it's a lot easier to master a weapon which was purposely designed and made for wielding, twirling and stabbing than to master a found hunk of wood. I mean, can someone become an expert at wielding a bit of flotsam? Sure, but not for the same effort as a fella with a "real" weapon.

(And, to be clear, I'm still sticking with RAW, so there is no club talent. Of course, I could still allow weapon expertise, with or without requiring an extra point for clubs, but I haven't done it. If anyone raises a fuss, I may reconsider.)

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by phiwum

Surely, it's a lot easier to master a weapon which was purposely designed and made for wielding, twirling and stabbing than to master a found hunk of wood. I mean, can someone become an expert at wielding a bit of flotsam? Sure, but not for the same effort as a fella with a "real" weapon.

I’d argue that there is a difference between a club, which is made for the purpose of efficient bludgeoning, and a random piece of wood (or maybe even metal) that is used as an improvised club, but which may be less than satisfactory in terms of heft, length, and balance. If any of those are somehow lacking, it seems the appropriate mechanic would be to have it impose a penalty to DX, damage, or even both.

[TippetsTX]

My bias is the same as @Shostak. I prefer to define clubs in my game as intentional, not improvised, weapons. Some may be primitive and crudely made (and for those I apply adjustments similar to those for inferior bronze metal weapons), but at the end of the day they are designed to be a weapon... unlike a broken table leg or other "heavy chunk of wood". I realize this conflicts with the RAW definition, but it opens up more character options by treating 'clubs' the same as any other weapon.

How else can I create my dual-wielding escrima stick master?
;)

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

I prefer to define clubs in my game as intentional, not improvised, weapons. Some may be primitive and crudely made (and for those I apply adjustments similar to those for inferior bronze metal weapons), but at the end of the day they are designed to be a weapon... unlike a broken table leg or other "heavy chunk of wood".

I'll add that this approach gives the Brawling talent a little more usefulness; invest in Brawling, and you can use improvised clubs without (or perhaps less) penalty.

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by Shostak

I'll add that this approach gives the Brawling talent a little more usefulness; invest in Brawling, and you can use improvised clubs without (or perhaps less) penalty.

Heh, that's exactly what I do. Using an 'improvised weapon' (i.e. an object that wasn't explicitly designed to be a weapon) is always a 4d roll vs DX unless the character has the BRAWLING talent.