Two-weapons and club

[phiwum]

It seems to me there are a few options here.

1. We could simply say that because, per RAW, one can use a club without a specialized talent, he can use Two Weapons with a club.
   • Advantages: Simple, apparently consistent with RAW
   • Disadvantages: Makes Two Weapons with club a pretty damned good deal, perhaps too good.
2. We could just as plausibly say that one cannot use Two Weapons with club, because clubs are a crude weapon.
   • Advantages: Also apparently consistent with RAW, also simple.
   • Disadvantages: Very restrictive.
3. Amend (2) so that one cannot use Two Weapon with clubs unless they have Ax/Mace talent.
   • Advantages: A club is quite similar to a mace, so this makes sense.
   • Disadvantages: Costs four talent points even if someone only wants to use clubs with Two Weapons.
4. Amend RAW to require a talent in order to use a club.
   • Advantages: Fixes other problems with the RAW club exception.
   • Disadvantages: It's a drastic solution if you're only wondering about Two Weapons and club, as I am.
5. A hybrid approach: One can use Two Weapons with clubs only if they have Ax/Mace or they spend three (rather than two) Talent Points for Two Weapons.
   • Advantages: A minimal amendment to RAW that allows Two Weapons for clubs, but not at a bargain price (same cost as it would be for daggers, say). Prevents someone who usually Two Weapons a sword, say, from using Two Weapons with club, though someone who Two Weapons a hammer, ax or mace could do so.
   • Disadvantages: Doesn't solve any other issues with unskilled club usage if that's your interest.

I can see that a number of people are interested in item (4), because unskilled use of clubs bugs them (and Two Weapons is just one of the reasons). I lean towards (5) as an agreeable solution for Two Weapons at the moment.

Now, we could play the same game with Weapon Expertise, say, and come up with the same five options. In that case, I tend to prefer (2) -- a club is a crude weapon for crude folk, so no expertise allowed.

My argument in the case of Expertise could also be used as an argument for not allowing one to Two Weapon clubs. I don't have a principled reason to prefer (5) over (2) and could be persuaded either way.

The hybrid approach, (5), is really inspired by Henry's suggested Club talent, which Tippets also likes. In this way, I stick with the explicit rule that one could use a club without any talent, but I essentially require the Club talent by adding one to the cost of Two Weapons when you want to do something fancy with a club.

[Skarg]

I use 3. above, but think 2. and 4. work just as well, for my tastes.

5. seems ok to me too, except it seems messier.

To me, 1. looks like apathetic and like an invitation to munckinry, almost as bad as wanting Club Expertise based on no talent.

It also helps if you house-rule low-ST unarmed damage to be lower, or in some way nerf clubs slightly so they don't end up being about as good as using a real weapon with a talent.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by phiwum

It seems to me there are a few options here.

1. We could simply say that because, per RAW, one can use a club without a specialized talent, he can use Two Weapons with a club.
   • Advantages: Simple, apparently consistent with RAW
   • Disadvantages: Makes Two Weapons with club a pretty damned good deal, perhaps too good.
2. We could just as plausibly say that one cannot use Two Weapons with club, because clubs are a crude weapon.
   • Advantages: Also apparently consistent with RAW, also simple.
   • Disadvantages: Very restrictive.
3. Amend (2) so that one cannot use Two Weapon with clubs unless they have Ax/Mace talent.
   • Advantages: A club is quite similar to a mace, so this makes sense.
   • Disadvantages: Costs four talent points even if someone only wants to use clubs with Two Weapons.
4. Amend RAW to require a talent in order to use a club.
   • Advantages: Fixes other problems with the RAW club exception.
   • Disadvantages: It's a drastic solution if you're only wondering about Two Weapons and club, as I am.
5. A hybrid approach: One can use Two Weapons with clubs only if they have Ax/Mace or they spend three (rather than two) Talent Points for Two Weapons.
   • Advantages: A minimal amendment to RAW that allows Two Weapons for clubs, but not at a bargain price (same cost as it would be for daggers, say). Prevents someone who usually Two Weapons a sword, say, from using Two Weapons with club, though someone who Two Weapons a hammer, ax or mace could do so.
   • Disadvantages: Doesn't solve any other issues with unskilled club usage if that's your interest.

I can see that a number of people are interested in item (4), because unskilled use of clubs bugs them (and Two Weapons is just one of the reasons). I lean towards (5) as an agreeable solution for Two Weapons at the moment.

Now, we could play the same game with Weapon Expertise, say, and come up with the same five options. In that case, I tend to prefer (2) -- a club is a crude weapon for crude folk, so no expertise allowed.

My argument in the case of Expertise could also be used as an argument for not allowing one to Two Weapon clubs. I don't have a principled reason to prefer (5) over (2) and could be persuaded either way.

The hybrid approach, (5), is really inspired by Henry's suggested Club talent, which Tippets also likes. In this way, I stick with the explicit rule that one could use a club without any talent, but I essentially require the Club talent by adding one to the cost of Two Weapons when you want to do something fancy with a club.

All of these are viable options to consider. RAW tends to become more ambiguous and need some house rules when it comes to weapon damages that are dependent upon ST. Clubs present their own set of problems per the lack of an associated talent. But, then again, who really needs a special talent to use a club.

Perhaps, I can interject another option.

Two Weapons use of a club with Two Weapons talent and no Axe/Mace talent is allowed if, and only if, the club is used for defense/parry. Anyone can pick up a stick or piece of wood and try to block a hit with it. This would actually be a modification of option 1.

Otherwise, I would have no problem with option 1 standing as you have written it. The only way that you are going to do massive amounts of damage with a club is to have fairly high ST. If one already has Axe/Mace Talent, then Two Weapons talent and the use of club is a no brainer per the weapons table. If one has Two Weapons talent and some other type of weapon talent (i.e. sword) they should still be able to have a sword and a club wielded. Again, the use of the club will only be a +3 to BHD. That would give a ST 12 character a with a broadsword (2d) and club (1d+1). The club damage doesn't even begin to provide much of an advantage until the Character ST is 15 (1d+3) or more. By then, the character can wield two bastard swords (2d+1 each). There is little advantage for the Two Weapons with a club other than there being no specific weapon talent cost for the club (gee...we can't have that, can we? That may make the game fun by allowing some innovation on the part of the player). Practical application shows that option 1 is good and doesn't really provide a massive advantage unless the character only has one weapon and sees a club ripe for use. Otherwise, your players will be stifled from being innovative in a crunch or being too poor to buy two of the same weapon type. If they had two swords and one broke but there is a dropped club on the ground, some fast thinking on the part of the player would be to pick it up and use it. The present RAW appears to have no requirement for Club talent. Therefore, option 1, as written, gets my vote.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by Skarg

I use 3. above, but think 2. and 4. work just as well, for my tastes.

5. seems ok to me too, except it seems messier.

To me, 1. looks like apathetic and like an invitation to munckinry, almost as bad as wanting Club Expertise based on no talent.

It also helps if you house-rule low-ST unarmed damage to be lower, or in some way nerf clubs slightly so they don't end up being about as good as using a real weapon with a talent.

I'm sorry but this obsession with NERFing whenever possible just because someone may not like something, to me, is ruining TFT.

Is it too much to ask that the game NOT be NERFed away?

I'm sorry for being an old school and grouchy skeptic but I have come to hate NERFing as I learn the new TFT as compared to it's original form to which I had become accustomed for 40 years. Enough NERFing has occurred. Please don't NERF the fun out of the game.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN

I'm sorry but this obsession with NERFing whenever possible just because someone may not like something, to me, is ruining TFT.

Is it too much to ask that the game NOT be NERFed away?

I'm sorry for being an old school and grouchy skeptic but I have come to hate NERFing as I learn the new TFT as compared to it's original form to which I had become accustomed for 40 years. Enough NERFing has occurred. Please don't NERF the fun out of the game.

I mean my house rules. But RAW, at ST 9 and below (or ST 11 if you compare to Quarterstaff), one-handed clubs do the same damage with no talent as a steel weapon which requires a talent, and a two-handed maul does 1 more damage.

I used the word nerf, but it seems more like a case of "this seems off".

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by Skarg

I mean my house rules. But RAW, at ST 9 and below (or ST 11 if you compare to Quarterstaff), one-handed clubs do the same damage with no talent as a steel weapon which requires a talent, and a two-handed maul does 1 more damage.

I used the word nerf, but it seems more like a case of "this seems off".

Perhaps, but a ST 9 character needs all the help they can get. I don't see that big of a problem so far as practical application. They should get extra EXP for innovative thinking. LOL!.

Sorry. It seems that NERF has become my trigger word. LOL!

[hcobb]

The advantage of Fencer over Club Expertise is that you can get very fine blades with natural poison on them.

[phiwum]

Henry,

The question is what one should do if a player wants an expertise or two-weapon skill with club. "Explain to him that Fencer is better" isn't a particularly good response.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN

Perhaps, but a ST 9 character needs all the help they can get. I don't see that big of a problem so far as practical application. They should get extra EXP for innovative thinking. LOL!.

Heh, yeah, I know what you mean, and sort of agree - mostly it's not a problem because it usually amounts to about 1d damage, and in the types of games I play, this usually means we're talking about some not-very-impressive person acting in desperation, so maybe we're content if it gets a bit over-represented, and/or just don't care much.

So the house rule attention is for cases when I do care, say because I'm trying to fine-tune low-ST combat for situations where we have a lot of weak folk (e.g. goblins, halflings, adolescents), or there are players who care that the low end makes more sense (e.g. one with a rapier or hatchet who's annoyed that a club with no talent does as much damage), or if there's a munchkin player whom I don't just disinvite who is wanting to stack various bonus damages (and/or Two Weapons). (Like what's currently being re-discussed in http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=178458 ).

Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN

Sorry. It seems that NERF has become my trigger word. LOL!

No worries!

[hcobb]

The main current nerf for the club is that you can't get a fine edge or advanced talents for it.


ST 6 character with the Knife talent does 1d-1 with dagger or one-handed club, but in addition the dagger allows:

• Very cheap very fine weapons for 1d+1 attacks
• Weapon expertise to boost that up to 1d+2 with shrewd blows, etc.
• And a built in partial two-weapons attack.
• And the daggers weigh much less.