How likely would you be to utilize a paid GURPS GM, and what would you expect? - Page 3

Alden Loveshade · 12-28-2021, 02:16 PM

When I first heard of a GM getting paid to GM, the thought rather blew me away. I had never thought of such a thing.

But then I realized I had already paid and been paid.

In my early in-person roleplaying days, the players would buy the GM snacks for the game. More significantly, when I attended my first in-person gaming convention (the only one where I didn't run games), I paid for admission. Some of that benefited the GMs.

For conventions where I ran games, I got admission to a gaming convention from Friday evening to Monday afternoon. I got to stay in a hotel room for that same amount of time. I often was also given a book or two. For the amount of time, I probably actually got more "payment" there than I did at my regular job!

So paying a GM is nothing new. It goes back to the 20th Century.

cptbutton · 12-28-2021, 02:26 PM

No.

One problem is that if the GM is professional, there will be a temptation to do a less good job, by pandering to players desires, or by putting in the minimal effort to not lose players. If you are doing it for money, it is likely that it becomes about maximizing income versus maximizing fun.

That's starting down the road to become the McDonalds of gaming, to draw a restaurant analogy.

GMing inevitably involves edge cases and judgement calls, and if there is money at stake it will skew things. On the other side, some players who might accept a bad GM call in a free game will get all huffy and indignant at being cheated when they paid for it.

FF_Ninja · 12-28-2021, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cptbutton

No.

One problem is that if the GM is professional, there will be a temptation to do a less good job, by pandering to players desires, or by putting in the minimal effort to not lose players. If you are doing it for money, it is likely that it becomes about maximizing income versus maximizing fun.

I don't know that I agree with this in its entirety. I get what you're saying, but applying a cash value to something does not default a provider to do a worse job. In fact, it's actually a shot in the arm when you realize the value of what you produce, and nothing says "this is valuable" like someone offering to pay you for it. Case in point: My wife does art and she doesn't think too highly of it (even though it's remarkable); I convinced her to put it on ebay one time and it immediately sold for triple digits. She was floored, and it showed her that what she does has objective (or at least subjective) value.

The hobby we all partake in is full of people who do it for love. The amount of time, study, effort, creativity, design work, and content control we put into DMing our favorite systems is astronomical. Anyone who does such a labor of love in a hobby that they care so much about is highly unlikely to drop the quality of what they do because someone puts cash in the bucket. We all typically spend so much of our time just trying to be good and great GMs to dump it because we're being compensated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tshiggins

Not just, "no," but, "hell no."

If I want a GURPS campaign, and nobody else wants to run one, I'll set it up, myself.
I enjoy world-building for its own sake, and have no shortage of players.

As for taking money to GM a game, that's an even more emphatic, "Hell, no!"
Table-top RPGs are supposed take place collaboratively, amongst friends who like and respect one another.

Compensation, in the form of anything other than a plate of food and a drink, is not something that should happen, between friends.

I understand the sentiment, but (as I tried to express in a previous comment) I don't believe compensation should be off the table just because of familiarity or friendship.

Pretty much every day, we compensate people we know (including friends and family) for doing things for us - providing services and goods that we aren't able or willing to do for ourselves. Someone drives me to work a couple times a week, I chip in cash because they take time out of their day and use their own resources to help me. My kid mows the lawn and weeds the garden and I pay him - partly because he does a good job, partly because I'm glad I didn't have to it, and partly because it's encouraging to him. My neighbor spends five or six hours helping me repair my deck or patch my roof - even lending me tools that I don't have - and I'll treat him to dinner and an easy $100 bare mins because of how much I value his service. Even the act of hosting weekly game nights - opening one's house to people, feeding them, entertaining them - is in and of itself a value that I produce and I have literally had people slip me cash or gifts in appreciation.

The only difference with "professional" GMing, really, is that there's a more solid agreement ahead of time.

It's been said that anything worth doing is worth doing well enough to be paid. If someone hosts me and four or five other friends for four or five hours of entertainment, it's not a hard stretch for me to attach a value to my time, to the DM's time, and to the quality of the time. It cost me $40-60 for a typical video game that I hope to give me as many hours of enjoyment alone; it costs me $15-$20 to go see a movie in a theater for two hours; it costs me an entrance fee plus God-only-knows what-else to spend a day at an amusement park - and the only commonality between any of these experiences is that, as I've found, none of them have given me as much enjoyment as a great game night.

I don't necessarily think that being a "paid" GM is a great profession. I don't believe it should be or could be a standard. It might even be a silly concept that will fade off into oblivion. However, I will never suggest or believe that cash compensation or payment is off the table just because bros love spending time with each other and hold mutual respect.

Try a thought experiment for a moment. You know you GM, you know your typical gaming group. If your group members decided each to drop a $20 on your GM the next time you sat down to play, how much of an impact would that have on him/her? I can honestly say that if I hosted and prepared a game that would likely last most of the evening and my players dropped $100 on the table in appreciation (or "compensation"), I'd be floored (and I'd also have more leverage with the wife when it came to allotting time and energy to the hobby - "Honey, I covered our car payment. I'm not wasting time, here!").

Not really attempting to argue a point, though, as much as offer a countervaling opinion.

cptbutton · 12-28-2021, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FF_Ninja

The hobby we all partake in is full of people who do it for love. The amount of time, study, effort, creativity, design work, and content control we put into DMing our favorite systems is astronomical. Anyone who does such a labor of love in a hobby that they care so much about is highly unlikely to drop the quality of what they do because someone puts cash in the bucket. We all typically spend so much of our time just trying to be good and great GMs to dump it because we're being compensated.

True, but once it becomes a significant money-making activity, people only interested in the money with try very very very hard to find a way to take it over.

Yeah I am projecting rather a long way down the road here.

FF_Ninja · 12-28-2021, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cptbutton

True, but once it becomes a significant money-making activity, people only interested in the money with try very very very hard to find a way to take it over.

I'm just saying. Presuming there was a market for this and assuming someone was a good enough GM to "rake it in" after some fashion, it's highly unlikely they'd drop the quality of their work to do "the least" in order to maximize profit - and the ones that did would quickly lose their customers base. This just isn't an environment that lends itself well to a lack of love.

SilvercatMoonpaw · 12-28-2021, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FF_Ninja

Would you be at all interested in utilizing a professional GM for GURPS?

No: I don't have the kind of income where this would be a valuable spend.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FF_Ninja

If you did hire a GM, what kind of skills and expertise would you expect them to bring to the table?

Reliability. Being interesting.

Sorry, I know those are vague, but I'm not good at this kind of description.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FF_Ninja

What kind of wage do you think a GM should earn?

US$10 per game session. With a warning that I know very little about how much various service is worth.

sparcipx · 12-28-2021, 05:32 PM

Our group held our mid-week video chat to discuss this weekend's upcoming gaming session, so I broached the subject of paid GMs.

After their predictable responses (eg Can we pay you not to GM, Wheeler?) and comments of gamers rising up to seize the means of production, we sat back and had an intelligent discussion. There was a bit of confusion at first over what we were debating: Are we debating whether or not Paid GMing should exist, or if we'd use a paid GM... so we debated both aspects.

As to the first question, whether or not paid GMing should exist, we were surprisingly unanimous: Why not? If there's a demand for the service and people are willing to pay, more power to them.

We were split on the second question, whether or not we'd use a Paid GURPS GM. Four of the six (myself included) said no. The other two were a "maybe" and a "definitely". The Maybe said it wouldn't make sense for our group's sessions, but it might if we were running a tourney or an event. The Definitely (my co-GM) said he sees the value in the service as it means he could spend more time as a player, and he'd welcome fresh blood. He added he'd consider using the services of a paid GM if we ever decide to switch to a different, unfamiliar RPG system (Genesys, Pathfinder, and Fate were mentioned) until we got up to speed... which I admit was an excellent point.

Which brought up a third question: Would you be a Paid GURPS GM? I said no, because I know me and I'd eventually start looking at it like another job, with the added layer of stress of having to deliver a consistently good "product" to keep myself employed. My co-GM said it's something that might interest him down the road, as a way to introduce more local gamers to GURPS. The other four each gave a resounding "meh".

So, that's our group's perspective.

Þorkell · 12-28-2021, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trechriron

3. I would posit $20/hour (US $), and a minimum of 5 hours for the game, so $100 for the GM divided amongst the players. 5 players would each pitch in $20, which is a cheap 5 hours of entertainment IMHO.

Just using the above to have some context for my point. IF there was such a thing as a pay-GM (hereafter pGM) that person would almost certainly bill you for more than just the hours spent at the table. As you all probably know, the GM does prep which takes time. Granted if there was a pGM he would almost certainly use the same adventure/world for multiple groups but almost certainly wouldn't do the prepwork for free.

FF_Ninja · 12-28-2021, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Þorkell

Just using the above to have some context for my point. IF there was such a thing as a pay-GM (hereafter pGM) that person would almost certainly bill you for more than just the hours spent at the table. As you all probably know, the GM does prep which takes time. Granted if there was a pGM he would almost certainly use the same adventure/world for multiple groups but almost certainly wouldn't do the prepwork for free.

You know, there's another angle introduced now: productivity and efficiency.

Right now, GMs typically have the freedom to do whatever they want. If they don't have structure or efficiency - don't have a "method" of creating content, may or may not re-use or repurpose previously-developed assets, spends (possibly read: "wastes") energy on dabbling in inconsequential bits of development here and there that typically don't often pan out - then it's not going to really be a problem. I think most GMs probably have never been "under the gun" so to speak.

It also occurs to me that "being under the gun" might not be a bad thing. Probably the number one impediment to me being a good GM, personally, is that I don't have any pressure and I typically avoid putting myself into situations where I'm committed until I'm entirely ready. And as I'm lazy and I procrastinate... progress is stagnant. If I had to commit to DMing - and had to deliver something that wasn't ***** when I did - I think it would actually bring out a new level of productivity (eventually, anyway) that I'd never had. Doing something under a deadline is actually very good for learning to be productive with your time.

So, perhaps a stint as a, ahem, "pGM" might actually help us become better DMs - at least when it comes to using our time efficiently and developing worthwhile content.

As to what's "billable," that's certainly up for discussion. A pGM may very well consider all of his prep-work into what he charges, but that might also encourage him to be efficient, develop good quality content that can be repurposed and adapted, and eventually lead him to have a repository of high-quality content to whip out and wield with little notice. I suspect most of the effort of a pGM would be front-loaded: as he develops good productivity and a knack for developing flexible content, he will also build a portfolio that will lower the amount of time he needs to spend prepping each time.

Honestly, I'm starting to look at this in a new light. A pGM can expect to...

...develop excellent prep skills, including time management, efficiency, and the ability to manufacture and vet flexible, quality content.
...build an asset portfolio that will not only cut his prep time into fractions but will build his confidence and provide good marketing material (if he markets, anyway).
...create a new source of revenue that will serve to validate the energy he's spent, give him an additional metric for measuring success, and help him create even better experiences in the future.

It's starting to feel like pGMing could be more valuable to the hobby than previously considered.

whswhs · 12-28-2021, 07:49 PM

Part of my perspective, as a GM, is that I get paid not only by the company of my players, but by their ability to entertain me with their roleplaying, and by their intelligent appreciation of my GMing. That's something I couldn't count on getting from people who paid cash to play in a campaign I ran, and it has more value to me than the cash would have. I won't attempt to phrase this in terms of "I would have to get X amount of cash," because there is no way I could get the sort of players I want by offering cash to them.

12-28-2021, 02:16 PM	#21
Alden Loveshade Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Hmm, looks like Earth, circa CE 2020+	Re: How likely would you be to utilize a paid GURPS GM, and what would you expect? When I first heard of a GM getting paid to GM, the thought rather blew me away. I had never thought of such a thing. But then I realized I had already paid and been paid. In my early in-person roleplaying days, the players would buy the GM snacks for the game. More significantly, when I attended my first in-person gaming convention (the only one where I didn't run games), I paid for admission. Some of that benefited the GMs. For conventions where I ran games, I got admission to a gaming convention from Friday evening to Monday afternoon. I got to stay in a hotel room for that same amount of time. I often was also given a book or two. For the amount of time, I probably actually got more "payment" there than I did at my regular job! So paying a GM is nothing new. It goes back to the 20th Century. __________________ The Times They Are A-Changing! Your income is about to change Pyramid #4/4: Fantasy/Magic II The Alchemists' Guild and much more GURPS Fantasy Folk: Elves My first GURPS supplement

12-28-2021, 02:26 PM	#22
cptbutton Join Date: Jul 2007	Re: How likely would you be to utilize a paid GURPS GM, and what would you expect? No. One problem is that if the GM is professional, there will be a temptation to do a less good job, by pandering to players desires, or by putting in the minimal effort to not lose players. If you are doing it for money, it is likely that it becomes about maximizing income versus maximizing fun. That's starting down the road to become the McDonalds of gaming, to draw a restaurant analogy. GMing inevitably involves edge cases and judgement calls, and if there is money at stake it will skew things. On the other side, some players who might accept a bad GM call in a free game will get all huffy and indignant at being cheated when they paid for it. __________________ -- Burma!

12-28-2021, 05:32 PM	#27
sparcipx Join Date: May 2020 Location: Winnipeg, Canada	Re: How likely would you be to utilize a paid GURPS GM, and what would you expect? Our group held our mid-week video chat to discuss this weekend's upcoming gaming session, so I broached the subject of paid GMs. After their predictable responses (eg Can we pay you *not* to GM, Wheeler?) and comments of gamers rising up to seize the means of production, we sat back and had an intelligent discussion. There was a bit of confusion at first over what we were debating: Are we debating whether or not Paid GMing *should* exist, or if we'd *use* a paid GM... so we debated both aspects. As to the first question, whether or not paid GMing should exist, we were surprisingly unanimous: Why not? If there's a demand for the service and people are willing to pay, more power to them. We were split on the second question, whether or not we'd use a Paid GURPS GM. Four of the six (myself included) said no. The other two were a "maybe" and a "definitely". The Maybe said it wouldn't make sense for our group's sessions, but it might if we were running a tourney or an event. The Definitely (my co-GM) said he sees the value in the service as it means he could spend more time as a player, and he'd welcome fresh blood. He added he'd consider using the services of a paid GM if we ever decide to switch to a different, unfamiliar RPG system (Genesys, Pathfinder, and Fate were mentioned) until we got up to speed... which I admit was an excellent point. Which brought up a third question: Would you be a Paid GURPS GM? I said no, because I know me and I'd eventually start looking at it like another job, with the added layer of stress of having to deliver a consistently good "product" to keep myself employed. My co-GM said it's something that might interest him down the road, as a way to introduce more local gamers to GURPS. The other four each gave a resounding "meh". So, that's our group's perspective. Last edited by sparcipx; 12-28-2021 at 05:36 PM.

12-28-2021, 07:49 PM	#30
whswhs Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Lawrence, KS	Re: How likely would you be to utilize a paid GURPS GM, and what would you expect? Part of my perspective, as a GM, is that I get paid not only by the company of my players, but by their ability to entertain me with their roleplaying, and by their intelligent appreciation of my GMing. That's something I couldn't count on getting from people who paid cash to play in a campaign I ran, and it has more value to me than the cash would have. I won't attempt to phrase this in terms of "I would have to get X amount of cash," because there is no way I could get the sort of players I want by offering cash to them. __________________ Bill Stoddard I don't think we're in Oz any more.