Anon's Animal Album

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Sam Baughn

Foot Manipulators [-6] is how it is done in Template Toolkit 2, but it does seem to have some screw-ups relating to them. The birds with foot manipulators should have the avian meta-trait, while apes should get semi-upright and extra arms (foot manipulators), and monkeys and opossums should probably have horizontal and extra arms (foot manipulators). I don't think anything in this supplement should actually have foot manipulators as a disadvantage except as part of a meta-trait.

I think it all depends on what you call a "meta-trait'. For example, if you consider Secretary bird a "race" than its traits are a "meta-trait". But it is weird that avian isn't applied to all flying birds.

Regarding Ape I don't understand as this supplement's version of the Ape meta trait is

Ape [-46]: Born Biter 1 [0]; Foot Manipulators 2 [-6]; Ham-Fisted 1 [-5]; Semi-Upright [-5]; Wild Animal [-30]

and all the apes in Anon's Animal Album have the Ape meta trait so that all have Foot Manipulators and Semi-Upright.

Unless you mean the way DF5 does it: Extra Arms 2 (Foot Manipulators, -30%; Short, -50%) [4]; Extra Legs (Four Legs; Temporary Disadvantage, No Fine Manipulators, -30%) [4] though Semi-Upright is not part of that package.

As for monkey, their core template is Born Biter 1 [0]; Foot Manipulators [-6]; Ham-Fisted 1 [-5]; Semi-Upright [-5]; Wild Animal [-30] though the way DF5 does is might make more sense if you add in Semi-upright.

[trechriron]

A huge Thank You for this amazing work! May you be showered with the joy and success of a million lifetimes!

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by maximara

3rd printing.

There we go then, that explains the difference in stats and I suspect there were also changes in 7th from 6th which is why I have a different price now than what I wrote against a few years ago.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Refplace

There we go then, that explains the difference in stats and I suspect there were also changes in 7th from 6th which is why I have a different price now than what I wrote against a few years ago.

Perhaps but the [99] for Chimpanzee in Totem given how races (and animals) are figured is still way too high.

The baseline for a race/animal cost has always been the Human baseline of 10 in all for stats. DF5 (2008) did things this with every animal having IQ as [0] so I don't understand totems (2009) 'buy IQ up to 10'. AFAIK no other book does any template be it animal or race that way.

As I said doing it that may makes the template more expensive than it should be.

[Sam Baughn]

Originally Posted by maximara

But it is weird that avian isn't applied to all flying birds.

Avian includes foot manipulators, so it is only appropriate for birds with grasping feet.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Sam Baughn

Avian includes foot manipulators, so it is only appropriate for birds with grasping feet.

Ok but Avian seems to be the same problem Apes have ie. B115:

*You can use your feet as hands: Extra Arms 2 (Temporary Disadvantage: Legless) (-30%) [14]

Now contrast that with Foot Manipulator

*Your “arm” is really an unusually dextrous leg. You cannot walk while you are manipulating objects with it (although you can sit, float, or fly). This is a Temporary Disadvantage limitation, the disadvantage being Legless

So Foot Manipulator refers you back to a limitation which has a totally different way of doing what appears to be the same thing.

Worst yet the basic set is mum on anything that separates the two ways of representing what appears to be the same thing.

[Sam Baughn]

Originally Posted by maximara

So Foot Manipulator refers you back to a limitation which has a totally different way of doing what appears to be the same thing.

Worst yet the basic set is mum on anything that separates the two ways of representing what appears to be the same thing.

I don't follow. Those two approaches seem to be exactly the same. In both cases, you take arms with the Temporary Disadvantage (Legless) limitation. For apes, this is Extra Arms (since they have two 'normal' arms and two foot-manipulators) while for birds the limitation is applied to their default two 'arms' using the rules for Modifying Beings With One or Two Arms (B53), because they have a total of two foot-manipulators and no 'normal' arms.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Sam Baughn

I don't follow. Those two approaches seem to be exactly the same. In both cases, you take arms with the Temporary Disadvantage (Legless) limitation. For apes, this is Extra Arms (since they have two 'normal' arms and two foot-manipulators) while for birds the limitation is applied to their default two 'arms' using the rules for Modifying Beings With One or Two Arms (B53), because they have a total of two foot-manipulators and no 'normal' arms.

Ok that makes some degree of sense but what about the way DF5 does the Chimp?

Extra Arms 2 (Foot Manipulators, -30%; Short, -50%) [4]; Extra Legs (Four Legs; Temporary Disadvantage, No Fine Manipulators, -30%) [4]

I'm just going to assume they used an old version of the basic set as semi-uright is missing form the DF5 package

[Sam Baughn]

Originally Posted by maximara

Ok that makes some degree of sense but what about the way DF5 does the Chimp?

Extra Arms 2 (Foot Manipulators, -30%; Short, -50%) [4]; Extra Legs (Four Legs; Temporary Disadvantage, No Fine Manipulators, -30%) [4]

Extra Legs (TD:NFM) means you suffer no penalty from walking upright, but can drop to all fours for added stability if you want.
Semi-Upright means you have a penalty when walking upright and can only move normally when on all fours.
As for why the DF Chimp has the former rather than the latter, I would guess because it is a super-powerful 'cinematic' animal template rather than a realistic one.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Sam Baughn

Extra Legs (TD:NFM) means you suffer no penalty from walking upright, but can drop to all fours for added stability if you want.
Semi-Upright means you have a penalty when walking upright and can only move normally when on all fours.
As for why the DF Chimp has the former rather than the latter, I would guess because it is a super-powerful 'cinematic' animal template rather than a realistic one.

That kind of runs contrary to "These familiars are somewhat sturdier and far more intelligent than their mundane brethren, but they are otherwise normal animals statement unless all animals in the DF setting are super-powerful 'cinematic' animals.