Going Berserk on your friends?

[JulianLW]

You get a self-control roll to snap out of a Berserk state when all your foes are down. A friend can make a Leadership roll to help you snap out of it. Does having a Sense of Duty to Companions help? How much?

What kind of bonus to a self-control roll to not attack a friend would a Berserker get for having a Sense of Duty to that person?

It's easy for me to imagine a dog that would easily go Berserk on someone who attacked his owner (i.e. a low self-control number) - and would be uncontrollable by that owner - but who would never attack the owner.

As an additional question: what kind of limitation on the disadvantage do you think it would it be to never harm someone unintentionally? One person? A group of people?

My guess is that, for one person, "Never harms [Person]" or "Never harmed by [Berserker]" could be a Perk, but that a guarantee about not harming a group of people (especially, like, a shifting group like an adventuring party) would be a pretty hefty limitation.

[WingedKagouti]

Originally Posted by JulianLW

What kind of bonus to a self-control roll to not attack a friend would a Berserker get for having a Sense of Duty to that person?

Basic doesn't offer any bonus for this scenario, but my first reaction is to say that at the very least the ones SoD applies to get attacked last. I'd also require taking the self-control rolls when the only potential targets left are covered by a SoD in case the player goes "I'm so out of control I don't try to calm down" or something similar.

[Rolando]

those are disadvantages, not advantages.

A higher purpose "be the best friend" or "keep my people safe" or some such may give some bonus, but disadvantages should not be mitigators (is that a real word?).

If you have sense of duty you will get ashamed and maybe depressed because you hurt your friends while berseking. Similar with pacifist and other "good" disadvantages.

If you want to make your character Berserk disadvantage sensitive to other personality traits you should get it with a better self control roll (to simulate you rarely lose your temper but can happen) or get it with some limitation that reduces the cost (better self control roll if getting my friends in danger, or some such).

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Rolando

mitigators (is that a real word?).

Yes. Though I'd disagree that a Disadvantage can't on occasion produce a good result. They're net bad traits, but not universally absolutely monotonically bad traits.

[Black Leviathan]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

[URL="https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/mitigator"] Though I'd disagree that a Disadvantage can't on occasion produce a good result. They're net bad traits, but not universally absolutely monotonically bad traits.

I'm done with players trying to use things they got free points for, and normally get XP for, as a way to get even more benefit. You can define your character in positive traits just as easily as you do in negative traits. As others pointed out a Sense of Duty is just a Higher Purpose to look after people that doesn't help you. And I really believe no disadvantage should offer you a mechanical boon unless it's specifically stated in the rules.

[JulianLW]

Originally Posted by Rolando

those are disadvantages, not advantages.

A higher purpose "be the best friend" or "keep my people safe" or some such may give some bonus, but disadvantages should not be mitigators (is that a real word?).

If you have sense of duty you will get ashamed and maybe depressed because you hurt your friends while berseking. Similar with pacifist and other "good" disadvantages.

If you want to make your character Berserk disadvantage sensitive to other personality traits you should get it with a better self control roll (to simulate you rarely lose your temper but can happen) or get it with some limitation that reduces the cost (better self control roll if getting my friends in danger, or some such).

Sense of Duty, according to RAW, does, in fact, give bonuses in some situations. This is from Social Engineering, page 54 (and there may be other cases):

"If the truth would expose a Secret of the prisoner, a friend or loved one, or a person or cause to whom he has Very Good or Excellent Loyalty or a Sense of Duty, he has a bonus to Will to resist questioning: +1 for Serious Embarrassment, +2 for Utter Rejection, +4 for Imprisonment or Exile, +6 for Possible Death. The same modifiers can apply for similar consequences even if the information isn’t formally defined as a Secret."

Sense of Duty to a friend can give up to a +6 bonus to a Will roll in an Interrogation situation. I'm wondering if the same dynamic should apply to Berserk.

[Rolando]

Disadvantages can give bonuses in some occasions but if they are used as mitigators then the mitigated disadvantage should cost less.

I'm all in for cases like having a bonus to a Will roll to resist interrogation to protect friends (because of the Sense of Duty) and other similar cases, and even for cases like allowing another Self Control roll to stop berserking (if your friends are trying to do something about it, not for free), but modifying a SC number seems to me borderline munchkin.

Imagine a character with Berserk and Pacifism: Self Defense Only. I can see a very conflicting character that suffer emotionally every time they goes berserk and hurt people that are not causing them real harm, but I would recommend a low SC number for the Berserk disadvantage, to represent the effort the character does to not lose control and because otherwise it will be hard to play. if you think it is an extreme case, in Vampire the Masquerade, a game mostly about personal horror, some vampires are cursed with a terrible temper, basically the Berserk disadvantage, but they where normal people and some where very pacifistic before being cursed.

[RedMattis]

Well, the state of Berserk is basically Immunity to Pain/Shock/Stun and a very conditional bonus to survival. Probably about 30 points of advantages at best. The bad part is basically On the Edge CR:0 [-37.5] + will attack my allies if no enemies are left.

Honestly, the "attacking my allies" part isn't even the worst part, the acting like a complete blood-crazed fool is. Unless you're much stronger than your allies they can likely grapple you down (no defense rolls due to forced All out Attacks) and hand-cuff you or whatever. ...with one exception. If you combine Berserk with Bad Temper it basically turns you into a complete murder-monster. (really this should be its own disadvantage, it is far worse than the two together separately)

I'd probably put Berserk (Will stop attacking/start hitting the ground/... when enemies are gone) at -5 or -8 points. It isn't a huge difference to how disadvantageous the trait usually is. The social aspect is probably the biggest one ("I don't trust you not to turn on the rest of us when you just go completely out of control like that man!")

[Inky]

It's one possible kind of scenario you might want to play, some players might not want to. But it's certainly a classic one.

Originally Posted by Rolando

If you think it is an extreme case, in Vampire the Masquerade, a game mostly about personal horror, some vampires are cursed with a terrible temper, basically the Berserk disadvantage, but they were normal people and some were very pacifistic before being cursed.

If you're talking about Frenzy, I'm pretty sure all Vampire: the Masquerade vampires have that. Clan Brujah have it worse than others (-2 to resist, can't spend Willpower Points for a bonus when rolling to avoid it starting), did you mean them?

In V:tM the Code of Honour feature (otherwise much like GURPS's Code of Honour) does give you a bonus on any Willpower rolls to resist doing something that would be against the particular Code of Honour, including, I presume, resisting frenzy.
However, possibly relevant to this discussion, in V:tM Code of Honour is the equivalent of an Advantage - you pay points for it, rather than being given points for it.
In V:tM Willpower rolls are a huge part of the game - frenzy, rotschreck (the "nope I'm outta here" version of frenzy that results from failing the equivalent of a Fright Check), enemy vampires trying to hypnotize your character, the whole mess that is blood bonds - and apparently the advantage that a Code of Honour gives you in those is worth more in that kind of game than the inconvenience of having to follow it.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by JulianLW

What kind of bonus to a self-control roll to not attack a friend would a Berserker get for having a Sense of Duty to that person?

Per RAW, I'd say nothing.

History and legend is full of examples of people who injured or killed loved ones or allies while in a berserk state (e.g., Hercules killing his family).

If the GM is feeling merciful, you might get bonuses for Sense of Duty or similar social or mental traits.

It's not canon, but successful rolls vs. Animal Handling (for Berserk animals) or Diplomacy or Psychology (for Berserk sapients) might give a bonus. Additionally, fatigue will gradually bring you out of a berserk state. You might get a +1 to recover if you are below 50% basic FP, and +2 if you are below 25% FP. Finally, pain or similar affliction - as long as it is inflicted after you berserk - might also help you "snap out of it," giving a bonus self-control rolls equal to the usual penalty to IQ or Will.