Skill Advancement

[ericthered]

At low levels, skills do get progressively harder to advance, with the 1,2,4,8 progression.



Most skills run into a diminishing returns at high levels. Once you have a 20, you expect to succeed on most every roll, even with some penalties. The exceptions tend to be combat skills and opposed contest skills. Managing those is usually about managing expectations and varying challenges.



At a certain point, its more attractive to raise attributes than skills.


One caution is that when you are moving from D&D stats to gurps stats, they look equivalent, but they're not. a 12 in gurps is about a 14 in D&D, and a 14 in gurps is about an 18.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by ericthered

One caution is that when you are moving from D&D stats to gurps stats, they look equivalent, but they're not. a 12 in gurps is about a 14 in D&D, and a 14 in gurps is about an 18.

Yes, pay close attention to the "How to Select Basic Attributes" table on page B14 — it's not just beginner's fluff.

10 is average for a human, and represents most people.
11 or 12: Above average, but not normally noticeable unless you do something that shows them off.
13 or 14: Immediately apparent to anyone who meets you, but you might know a few people like this in your lifetime.
15+: Everyone is amazed at your attribute.
20: Human maximum (except for ST).

GURPS Template Toolkit 1: Characters further defines the upper end:

17-18: Legendary. Historical bests and remarkable fictional and folkloric heroes.
19-20: Mythic. The best of the heroes. Physically possible for real people, but no one's ever really gotten there.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by ericthered

One caution is that when you are moving from D&D stats to gurps stats, they look equivalent, but they're not. a 12 in gurps is about a 14 in D&D, and a 14 in gurps is about an 18.

It's also important to keep in mind that they track things a bit differently. Strength in DnD covers a mix of GURPS ST (aside from HP) as well as some of GURPS DX and HT (striking in melee combat, as well as a few skills IIRC), Dexterity covers a mix of GURPS DX (aside from striking in melee combat) and some HT (mainly its contribution to Basic Speed), Constitution covers GURPS HT and a touch of ST (HP), Wisdom roughly maps to both GURPS Per and Will (with a bit of IQ in the mix), Intelligence covers some of GURPS IQ (the intellectual bits) but also calls for more non-combat skills and languages, and Charisma covers some parts of GURPS IQ (the social skills) as well as Reaction Modifiers. As ericthered notes, generally speaking every +1 modifier for a DnD stat corresponds to a +1 to the stat itself in GURPS (DnD Str 11 is +0, so roughly GURPS ST 10; DnD Wis 17 is +3, so roughly GURPS Per 13 and Will 13).

Originally Posted by Dalin

As others have said, there are diminishing returns. Moreover, it really depends on the feel of the campaign. For example, if you're a bunch of faux-medieval superheroes (i.e., dungeon fantasy characters), then it's fine to have a bow or rapier skill of 25+ so you can do ridiculous things like Legolas or Zoro. (In my current DF campaign, with five PCs in the 400 point range, the highest skill level is currently only 21.)

If the campaign is grittier, then it makes sense to impose a limit, like "No skills over __ without a GM-approved Unusual Background." Since that varies from game to game, and points don't really reflect anything in the "reality" of the game world, it makes sense to leave it to each table to determine.

Kromm has also pointed out in various places that true mastery is reflected as much by the breadth of skills as depth. A legendary swordmaster will have a high weapon skill, but also a slew of other support skills. Depending on the genre, a swordmaster might invest points in acrobatics, armoury, blind fighting, connoisseur, leadership, observation, psychology, tactics, strategy, etc.). This is in addition to the advantages, attributes, and secondary attributes that support the archetype.

Advantages can also be useful here, although those often map a bit more closely to Feats and Class Features/Special Abilities. Charisma, Social Regard, Reputation, Appearance, etc can stand in for DnD Cha, and Weapon Master could stand in for DnD Str/Dex (depending on weapon) and/or Weapon Specialization. Techniques can also be useful to map to Feats (DF even has many Power-Ups, roughly comparable to DnD Feats, that are actually Techniques), although it's rare for getting more than 2 to be worthwhile compared to just buying up skill (but consider this for a Technique-heavy character).

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Varyon

It's also important to keep in mind that they track things a bit differently. Strength in DnD covers a mix of GURPS ST (aside from HP) as well as some of GURPS DX and HT (striking in melee combat, as well as a few skills IIRC), Dexterity covers a mix of GURPS DX (aside from striking in melee combat) and some HT (mainly its contribution to Basic Speed), Constitution covers GURPS HT and a touch of ST (HP), Wisdom roughly maps to both GURPS Per and Will (with a bit of IQ in the mix), Intelligence covers some of GURPS IQ (the intellectual bits) but also calls for more non-combat skills and languages, and Charisma covers some parts of GURPS IQ (the social skills) as well as Reaction Modifiers. As ericthered notes, generally speaking every +1 modifier for a DnD stat corresponds to a +1 to the stat itself in GURPS (DnD Str 11 is +0, so roughly GURPS ST 10; DnD Wis 17 is +3, so roughly GURPS Per 13 and Will 13).

As a long time GM of D&D (going back to AD&D1) and GURPS (1986) I would disagree with much of that especially for the real early versions where a sword did the same amount of damage if you swung or thrust it.

More over since D&D uses a d20 for hinting and many other dice for damage while GURPS uses a d6 a +1 in D&D does not equate to a +1 in GURPS

The D&D to GURPS sheet (which in print form goes a back to late 1980s). Because of the many variations it glosses over the differences and "cuts to the chase" and even then it is long.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

The 3e template values were calculated assuming the stat mods were modifying a stat of 10. Once you bought a 13, then the racial +1 would take it to 14 -- normally a +15 point jump, but in the template, it only cost +10. So you saved 5 points.

The solution here seems pretty straightforward - apply the racial template first, then build your character off of that. You don't buy, say, DX 13 and then apply a +1 from the racial template - you start at DX 11 from the racial template and then buy up from there at normal cost for each level. That said, I think I prefer 4e's constant cost.

Originally Posted by maximara

As a long time GM of D&D (going back to AD&D1) and GURPS (1986) I would disagree with much of that especially for the real early versions where a sword did the same amount of damage if you swung or thrust it.

More over since D&D uses a d20 for hinting and many other dice for damage while GURPS uses a d6 a +1 in D&D does not equate to a +1 in GURPS

Let me preface this by noting my experience with D&D is pretty much exclusively 3.5e (and my GURPS experience is exclusively 4e), so I can't speak about other editions. The damage relationships are a bit different, but not terribly so. An average D&D weapon is probably 1d8, where +1 is +22.2% to average damage rather than the +28.6% it is for a d6... but then GURPS weapons typically have bonuses, which makes the +1 from +1 ST (assuming swing; thrust weapons are more like +1 per +2 to ST) have less of an impact. Of course, raw damage value is often more important in GURPS - while it's rare in DnD to encounter a foe who can no-sell a hit (damage reduction is usually fairly low, and most of the time if dealing with "level-appropriate" foes you'll have magic weapons that ignore it), the same is certainly not true of GURPS, at least in settings where armor is common. I'd say it's roughly a wash, maybe with each +1 meaning more in GURPS than D&D, but not markedly so. For success rolls, 3d6 isn't that far off from 1d20 (in fact, there are optional rules for D&D to use 3d6 instead of 1d20) - each +1 to 1d20 is +5%, and each +1 to 3d6 averages out to +6.25%.

Originally Posted by maximara

The D&D to GURPS sheet (which in print form goes a back to late 1980s). Because of the many variations it glosses over the differences and "cuts to the chase" and even then it is long.

Yeah, that's a pretty good article from skimming it.

[Boge]

I was thinking this a while back too. It is odd that you can go from +10 stat just as easily as +4 stat.

3rd edition was pretty extreme. I think a +1 point cost for the next level would probably have worked well. Like an easy skill would be 1 point for stat level, 2 points for +1, 3 points +2, 4 points +3, etc. I also think stat increases should be that way as well. 3rd edition made more sense that way to me.

But, it is what it is. Make a house rule and hope your players are on board, or just stick with the book rules. There will never be a 5th edition Gurps...very sad.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Emerikol

What causes them to go from 8 to 4 for the maximum cost in the skill advancement table? I admit I like the fact they went to just one table. Were people under the old system going for broader character concepts that covered too many categories? Was there any thought to limiting how many different skills a PC could have?

3e had several unsatisfactory features:

There were three different skill progressions: Physical (½, 1, 2, 4, 8. 16, 24, 32 ...), Mental (½, 1, 2, 4. 6. 8. 10, 12 ...) and Mental/Very Hard (½, 1, 2, 4, 8, 12, 16, ...). Having just one makes things simpler.

Most Mental skills seemed too cheap to buy up to high levels.

Buying Physical skills up to high levels was expensive, and buying up attributes in play was double the price you paid at character generation.

Talents hadn't been invented, as such.

The combination of these things created strong incentives to create characters with most of their points in attributes and advantages, and few points in skills. That's a perfectly valid character concept, but other concepts were disadvantaged. The new pricing made a wider variety of concepts cost-effective.

[Icelander]

Also, just because something is harder to learn in real life doesn't mean it needs to cost more as a fictional trait.

In a realistic campaign, GMs should absolutely require progressively longer periods of time between increases of skills, especially skills where the PC is at the forefront of world-class in his field and rarely finds anything a challenge any more.

In a campaign where realism is not a concern, Broadsword DX+11 provides no more than 4 points of benefit over Broadsword DX+10, at most.

[hal]

Originally Posted by johndallman

3e had several unsatisfactory features:


Buying Physical skills up to high levels was expensive, and buying up attributes in play was double the price you paid at character generation.

This is one thing that I will bring back to my 4e games to be blunt. The idea that just buying up stats after start of play ignores the fact that by a given point in time, the body is largely done improving, and the IQ of an individual rarely changes THAT much.

Sadly, GURPS now encourages Min/Max building, and worse yet, has encouraged Point cost inflation. Now it is not uncommon to build characters on 400 to 500 points - whereas, some have stuck to keeping the starting costs around 150 to 200. My cyberpunk campaigns are usually limited to around 225 character points. Why 225? 150 x 1.5 to match the idea that GURPS 4e's characters are now built upon 150 points instead of 100. Keeping starting points low makes players think HARD about what they want to have.

In all? We each do with GURPS what we want and life is good regardless of how you do it. This is why I tease people from time to time saying that I play GURPS 3.5 (at least within our group). GURPS 3e rules mixed in for some things, GURPS 4e for the rest.

[Emerikol]

Shane,
I think something along these lines is worth studying. I would absolutely limit attribute increases whether I changed skills or not. I’ve be considering an attribute rule that was no more additions than your starting purchase on an attribute. So a 12 can go to 14 or a 13 can go to 16.