Which optional rules do you use for muscle-powered weapons and armors?

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

.....


They have too good armour penetration. I would not say they do an unreasonable amount of damage.

Yeah this is pretty much my take on it, ST based damage actually scales with ST based HP reasonably well.

The problem is unless you use a design system to make thicker and thicker armour to counter attacks of increasing ST, DR from armour tends to stay a lot more static and so yep is loses it effectiveness as ST goes up.

I.e if you want DR to keep up with ST based Damage that scales with ST you have to let DR also scale with ST in some way. and the system defaults to all hand held weapon damage scaling with ST but armour DR is pretty much a range of static options in the equipment lists.

I've messed with various house rules down the years but ultimately I use edge protection from LT, allow armour to be tailored to it's wearers ability to wear it and tend to truncate* the range of ST's for humans before they hit the levels of Gorillas and Bears. I personally don't have too much problem in my games.




*this is a specific game choice for several reasons and not a system wide solution.

[Sorenant]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

The problem is unless you use a design system to make thicker and thicker armour to counter attacks of increasing ST, DR from armour tends to stay a lot more static and so yep is loses it effectiveness as ST goes up.

I.e if you want DR to keep up with ST based Damage that scales with ST you have to let DR also scale with ST in some way. and the system defaults to all hand held weapon damage scaling with ST but armour DR is pretty much a range of static options in the equipment lists.

For games that features inhuman ST levels, Better Fantasy Armor can help bridge the gap between damage and DR.

I also recall a thread about "Armor Master" as a defensive counterpart of Weapon Master being created a while ago. Has anybody ever tried something similar in their game? I just had an idea of turning Armor Mastery from DF into a leveled trait, I think it would be good for the Knight-like characters but it makes me worry about DR disparity between the fighters and casters/supports.

[Donny Brook]

I use Lifting ST for armoires.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Sorenant

For games that features inhuman ST levels, Better Fantasy Armor can help bridge the gap between damage and DR.

Nice!

Originally Posted by Sorenant

I also recall a thread about "Armor Master" as a defensive counterpart of Weapon Master being created a while ago. Has anybody ever tried something similar in their game? I just had an idea of turning Armor Mastery from DF into a leveled trait, I think it would be good for the Knight-like characters but it makes me worry about DR disparity between the fighters and casters/supports.

I've not tried it but it highlights another area where the same issue applies. The system allows a range of ways of increasing handheld damage over and above ST and weapon, weather it's cinematic traits like weapon master, skill bonuses to damage for unarmed skills, combat option like AoA or determined etc.

But on the other side a DR6 breastplate tends to be a DR6 breastplate all the live long day. Armour just acts as an inert wall of protection.

(I think there was 3rd ed. rule that had armour adding to defence more directly "PD" IIRC, but I don't really know 3rd ed.)

I shouldn't worry too much about DR disparity, just have your knights face harder hitting opponents than you supporting cast. Which they likely are doing anyway being knights.

Another possible way to go and to tie armour into a more active role in defence, is to have a kind of "graze" rule that adds to DR rather than reduces damage. For example say you miss an active defence by one MoF, the attack lands but you multiply your DR by 1.5 (rounded down), miss your defence by two MoF your DR by 1.25 (round down).

This would give the armour wearer more of a safety margin if the system is allowing their opponents to blast through their DR.

You could make this an optional rule that costs a perk to access

(this just thought I had in response etc your post this is in no way play tested etc)

[zoncxs]

Originally Posted by Sorenant

I'm referring to optional rules (or house rules) about adjusting muscle-powered damage, weapon types, armor types and how they interact with each other. ...

I have my own house rules that changes damage how damage scales and where it starts. This house rule cascades to other rules.

Basically swing damage becomes equal to ST/4 with fractions being +1(.25), +2(.5), or +1d-1(.75). Damage Resistance cost 2cp per level. etc.

This gives you, assuming ST 10 is our base, damage being the square root of basic lift as a ration to ST 10. So someone with ST 20 does twice the amount of damage on average compared to someone with ST 10. ST 20 has a basic lift of 80lbs which is 4 times that of ST 10 of 20lbs, sqrt of 4 is 2. With my formula ST 10 does 2.5, or 2d+2, damage. ST 20 does 5d damage.

This scale continues and does not break. Someone with ST 100 does 10 times the damage of someone with ST 10, ST 1000 is 100 times, etc.

You have to rescale known weapon damages (Firearms), though. Which is easy, just convert dice to whole numbers and addons to decimal like above. A pistol that does 2d+2 damage becomes 2.5, times that by 2.5 and you get 6.25 which becomes 6d+1.

This means that for someone to be able to deal the same damage as that pistol they would need an ST of at least 25 to match it. Normal GURPS damage scale, they would need only ST 16.

[Edges]

Wow. Multiplying firearm damage by 2.5! That would scare my players.

We have used something similar though (leaving firearm damage as is or sometimes using survivable guns):

ST/12=d(th), ST/8=d(sw).

We put together some intermediate values too which I can look up if someone's interested.

EDIT: We also cap realistic human ST at 16.

[RyanW]

I am trying what I call "Know Your Own Conditional Damage"

Base Dam = (ST-10)/3
Base HP = (ST+2)/3

[zoncxs]

Originally Posted by Edges

Wow. Multiplying firearm damage by 2.5! That would scare my players.

...

Why would it scare them? Nothing changes, the ratio of everything remains the same as it is now. The big difference is that players do LESS damage than compared to before.

A pistol that deals 2d+2 (9 average damage) takes 1 or 2 hits to take a ST 10 HP 10 target to less than 0 HP.

ST 10 gives 1d swing damage (3.5 average) and HP 10, so on average it takes 3 hits to reduce to 0 HP.

ST 14 gives 2d swing damage (7 average) and HP 14, so on average it takes 2 hits to reduce to 0 HP.

ST 18 gives 3d swing damage (10.5 average) and HP 18, so on average it takes 2 hits to reduce to 0 HP.

ST 22 gives 4d swing damage (14 average) and HP 22, so on average it takes 2 hits to reduce to 0 HP.


My rules makes it:

A pistol that deals 6d+1 (22 average damage) takes 1 or 2 hits to take a ST 10 HP 25 target to less than 0 HP.

ST 10 gives 2d+2 swing damage (9 average) and HP 25, so on average it takes 3 hits to reduce to 0 HP.

ST 14 gives 3d+2 swing damage (12.5 average) and HP 35, so on average it takes 3 hits to reduce to 0 HP.

ST 18 gives 4d+2 swing damage (16 average) and HP 45, so on average it takes 3 hits to reduce to 0 HP.

ST 22 gives 5d+2 swing damage (19.5 average) and HP 55, so on average it takes 3 hits to reduce to 0 HP.

The amount of hits needed is the same, we just have a finer detail in it. But more importantly, players will not be able to deal the same amount of damage as decent guns with a bow. With my system in a non powers game, ST is limited to 18 at most. Every point of ST means something now too, you get an increase in damage at every level so it is worth it, your HP goes up by 2 or 3 making it harder to take you down, etc.


But, really, firearm damage SHOULD scare people, after all, the point of guns is to kill, and if you can shrug off the damage, or even deal more damage with a melee weapon, then something is off. My fix was not aimed at that but at making damage be in ratio with Basic Lift and all of a sudden, EVERYTHING else gets fixed.

[Edges]

Are you also multiplying HP by 2.5? I didn't see that in your post.

If so, that is a pretty big change. There are more ways to get hurt than muscle-powered weapons and guns.

[zoncxs]

Originally Posted by Edges

Are you also multiplying HP by 2.5? I didn't see that in your post.
If so, that is a pretty big change.

Yes, as I mentioned, that one rule cascades into others.

Originally Posted by Edges

There are more ways to get hurt than muscle-powered weapons and guns.

Yes, there are, and this rule effects them too. What other ways are you thinking of that reduces HP?