Elves as "closer to nature and lower-tech" - give them a revulsion to metal?

[JulianLW]

I've posted this before in a similar thread about possible ways of thinking about how an Elvish culture might work, but here it is again:

John Lanchester's "The Case Against Civilization"
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...t-civilization

I think magical elves would rely on natural abundance and self-reliance; they wouldn't be interested in structures that supported strict hierarchies because their communities would be radically egalitarian and wouldn't suffer from many of the hardships associated with scarcity. It's a pretty interesting article.

[AlexanderHowl]

But magic provides effective tech level (ETL). If elves have magic that grants them the benefits of TL11, then they have ETL 11, regardless if they have metallurgy or not. The Nature modifier should apply in cases of ETL as well as TL, as ETL is just as unnatural as TL.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

But magic provides effective tech level (ETL). If elves have magic that grants them the benefits of TL11, then they have ETL 11, regardless if they have metallurgy or not. The Nature modifier should apply in cases of ETL as well as TL, as ETL is just as unnatural as TL.

I totally don't agree with that. Elf magic may be a different technology, but it can be a different technology that's allergic to materially based human technology. The fact that two things both have the same game mechanical label doesn't at all make them the same thing in terms of actual cause and effect.

[Sorenant]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I totally don't agree with that. Elf magic may be a different technology, but it can be a different technology that's allergic to materially based human technology. The fact that two things both have the same game mechanical label doesn't at all make them the same thing in terms of actual cause and effect.

I agree with AlexanderHowl when it comes to game mechanics but with you storywise.
It makes sense that such elves would develop an alternative "technology" that coexists with nature and thus doesn't penalize their magical abilities. However, if they can so easily replace normal technology with their natural one, then the -10% mundane countermeasure modifier is not really limiting them, so it wouldn't be worth the point break. On the other hand, if such natural technology is more expensive than normal one (which would make sense, as it's likely to preclude mass production) then it arguably might work.
By the way, I wouldn't rate porcelains as high TL for this purpose, at least not if the elves has some sort of magic-powered kiln instead of using coal.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by SolemnGolem

TL;DR - If elves as a race have magical bonuses relating to Mother Nature, then how to explain their lower tech level? (As well as the fact that they presumably haven't just curbstomped all the lesser races already?)

I like the idea of a race that's more in tune with nature, and perhaps has a few freebie magical powers as a result. Many of the common tropes of elves have them, frankly, as overpowered - the D&D elf has night vision, a greatly extended lifespan, and a host of magical immunities. (So much so that a common question is "Okay, now we're building the game world and have to create a reason why they haven't conquered everything already.")

I think Poul Anderson toyed with that in "Three Hearts and Three Lions" (which is also the source of a lot of ideas in Basic and 1e AD&D: regenerating trolls, infravision, and a Law/Chaos dichotomy). He used it for fairies, and I like the idea of applying it to Tolkienesque elves.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

I think Poul Anderson toyed with that in "Three Hearts and Three Lions" (which is also the source of a lot of ideas in Basic and 1e AD&D: regenerating trolls, infravision, and a Law/Chaos dichotomy). He used it for fairies, and I like the idea of applying it to Tolkienesque elves.

I don't think that works for them. The Noldor, at least, were master smiths, jewelers, and artisans generally, from Feanor to Celebrimbor; and Celebrimbor and Galadriel both got along well with dwarves.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I don't think that works for them. The Noldor, at least, were master smiths, jewelers, and artisans generally, from Feanor to Celebrimbor; and Celebrimbor and Galadriel both got along well with dwarves.

Well, any version of Tolkienesque elves takes some bits from his works and mixes them in with others. For example, there is a d20 setting where due to a curse elves have very short lives (and very few versions use Tolkien's philology or his Catholic theology). And there is the bit in one of the books or appendices about how the Elves who stay in Middle Earth may fade away. But I think its fair to call versions of "tall, fair, long-lived, keen-eyed, clever at crafts and magic, live in woods or in hidden cities" elves Tolkienesque, whereas modern pop culture dwarves have many fathers.

[Alden Loveshade]

If you imagine elves as having a lower TL than others, I would think you would pretty much have a choice of one or more of the following:

1. They can't have it
   
2. They don't want it
   
3. They don't need it

Historically, "cold iron" was believed to be harmful to or to repel beings such as fairies (which were often considered the same as elves). In GURPS terms, this could be covered by variations of things like Dread, Revulsion, Weakness, possibly Susceptible depending on the setting.

One of these and Vulnerability to iron could be a justification for elven society forbidding or at least strongly discouraging its use.

And there are sometimes low tech ways of dealing with things that work just as well as higher tech. For example, I live in the country, and keep ants out of the house and snakes and wild animals away from my front door by using methods that could be done at TL 2 and below.

And there can be the issue of, "If I can take care of it with a few words and a wave of my hand, why would I want your machine?"

[RyanW]

Just an idea to throw out, but perhaps the elven way of doing a lot of things is really slow. Elves don't work metals at all (my first thought was that metalworking slowly poisons an elf's connection with nature magic), but they have ways of inducing trees to produce woods with a wide range of properties. Need a building? Grow a tree in the shape you need. Need a sword? Make a tree grow a super dense branch in the appropriate shape. It takes decades, but what are decades to an elf?

[AlexanderHowl]

Well, you still have to defend yourself during the time that you are waiting for your sword to grow. I think that it is much more likely that they design their environments to be dangerous to everyone else. An elven forest might be full of toxic fungi/plants whose spores/pollens cause any human who stumbles into them to suffer a number of adverse effects. Elves could gather and preserve the toxins for use during the winter, and any humans that would attempt to invade their territory would face an unpleasant surprise.

For example, an elven forest might cause any human to suffer from Slave Mentality while they are suffering from the effects of the toxins. Why would you need to make weapons when you can simply order any invaders to give you theirs? Legends would warn humans from entering elven forests because they would be enslaved by the glamour of the elves.