Technique for Acting/Disguise to pass as opposite gender

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Plane

It does seem unfortunate that Adrian (channeling Mulan no doubt) invested 4 points in her masquerade when a simple perk would have done it.

Maybe "pass" just refers to facial inspection, but "acting" is needed to do stereotypical gender habits (like how all men constantly belch and scratch themselves, right Disney?) while "disguise" is needed to do stereotypical gender wardrobe choices?

All 3 factors would coalesce into whether or not the masquerade works, though I'm not sure how you'd use them together to determine what final decision someone comes to, when suspicions are aroused...

Seems unlikely, frankly. That would make the perk's description pretty deceptive.

Obviously, anyone can cross-dress without needing Disguise skill, or having any interest in Disguise skill. You might need some Familiarity time to figure out how to put on and move in garments outside of your usual practice, but that's it. Of course, if you're actually trying to convince people of something with your clothing choices, that often will not achieve it, and Disguise would help if you want your clothing to give false impressions of the body underneath it. (And in many reference societies being perceived as cross-dressing may have repercussions.)

Acting definitely could be appropriate, if you need to put on a different persona with different mannerisms. I suspect it's easy to overstate how necessary that is - very few if any behavioral cues are clear giveaways. But the 'wrong' mannerisms might attract unwanted attention, and the 'right' ones might subtly discourage it.

Of course, if your baseline persona doesn't fly blatant gender flags, you might not need a different one at all...though depending on the society that might imply social Disadvantages.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

anyone can cross-dress without needing Disguise skill, or having any interest in Disguise skill.

Sure, by rolling at default, perhaps with a TDM of +10 if the GM thinks it's super-easy. That might depend on what clothes you have to work with, what features you need to hide...

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

You might need some Familiarity time to figure out how to put on and move in garments outside of your usual practice, but that's it.

Familiarity with new clothing would be a separate issue from knowing stuff like how to tie a necktie.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Of course, if your baseline persona doesn't fly blatant gender flags, you might not need a different one at all...though depending on the society that might imply social Disadvantages.

There might be less blatent giveaways related to modestry like being shocked at men disrobing in a change room if one wasn't used to it, I remember that in the skinny dipping scene in Mulan

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Plane

It does seem unfortunate that Adrian (channeling Mulan no doubt) invested 4 points in her masquerade when a simple perk would have done it.

Only if her player was okay with her having androgynous looks. If their imagined appearance for Adrian was a more 'classic' feminine base appearance that perk would be inappropriate, just as taking 'Cute' when your character is supposed to look like Dolph Lundgren would be.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Plane

Sure, by rolling at default, perhaps with a TDM of +10 if the GM thinks it's super-easy. That might depend on what clothes you have to work with, what features you need to hide...

Why would you be rolling Disguise if you're not trying to disguise anything?

Originally Posted by Plane

Familiarity with new clothing would be a separate issue from knowing stuff like how to tie a necktie.

...knowing how to tie a necktie seems like a perfect example of a familiarity-like issue to me. If it's separate, what do you think would be an example?

Originally Posted by Plane

There might be less blatent giveaways related to modestry like being shocked at men disrobing in a change room if one wasn't used to it, I remember that in the skinny dipping scene in Mulan

Being embarrassed by a bunch of men stripping down in front of you is an example of things that might make you seem a bit odd to others but really isn't clearly outing you as a woman.

I mean, it might if your culture has lots of really very compulsory gender-segregated but communal nude activities. Maybe.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Rupert

Only if her player was okay with her having androgynous looks. If their imagined appearance for Adrian was a more 'classic' feminine base appearance that perk would be inappropriate, just as taking 'Cute' when your character is supposed to look like Dolph Lundgren would be.

In the case of Dolph, if we argued he was something like Handsome (+4 to sex appeal against androphiles) then he obviously has some advantage he loses when he disguises that masculinity.

Adrian Froste has no gender-oriented bonus (just +1 attractive from EVERYONE regardless of preference) so she's not exactly losing that...

As best I can guess, if you're Attractive +1 you get that bonus to Sex Appeal vs Woman-Likers but if you disguise as male then do you get that +1 bonus to Sex Appeal vs Man-Likers, or would disguise effectively remove that +1?

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Why would you be rolling Disguise if you're not trying to disguise anything?

Maybe I'm making wrong assumptions about what you mean by cross-dress?

I wouldn't require a disguise skill roll for someone like J-pop rockstar/wrestler Ladybeard who is clearly making no attempt to hide what his biological sex is, for example. Nor for "Santina Marella" type parody cross-dressing.

I just had the roll in mind for people attempting "convincing" cross-dressing, like who are actually trying to look pretty enough that people might not be +10 to notice that it's really a male (even Santina/Ladybeard might trick some fantasy Orc who is very unfamiliar with human differences, we could take for granted our lack of Familiarity penalties)

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

...knowing how to tie a necktie seems like a perfect example of a familiarity-like issue to me. If it's separate, what do you think would be an example?

Knowing how to use your generic necktie-tying skills for a particular kind of necktie?

Like maybe some have a shiny/slippery texture that your fingers could fumble with. Or maybe a different length or width of material.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Being embarrassed by a bunch of men stripping down in front of you is an example of things that might make you seem a bit odd to others but really isn't clearly outing you as a woman.

I mean, it might if your culture has lots of really very compulsory gender-segregated but communal nude activities. Maybe.

I just remember it as standing out in the animated Mulan movie as her reacting uniquely. It of course didn't end her masquerade, but that might just be due to her fellow grunt soldiers being low IQ or so enthused about bathing that they didn't pay attention to her awkwardness.

One factor in Mulan is that while she passed as a male, she was assumed to be a YOUNG one (ie late teens) because of her comparative androgyny when we look at the other soldiers.

Li Shang sort of had that too (his handsomeness was not a 'rough' one, he seemed more adro/bishounen compared to Yao, Ling, and Chien Po) but was clearly more masculine than "Fa Ping" (the alias that Fa Mulan assumed)

Ping seeming like the youngest of the recruits is probably why, if any of them noticed how awkward "he" was around male nudity, would just write it off as inexperience.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Plane

Maybe I'm making wrong assumptions about what you mean by cross-dress?

I wouldn't require a disguise skill roll for someone like J-pop rockstar/wrestler Ladybeard who is clearly making no attempt to hide what his biological sex is, for example. Nor for "Santina Marella" type parody cross-dressing.

I just had the roll in mind for people attempting "convincing" cross-dressing, like who are actually trying to look pretty enough that people might not be +10 to notice that it's really a male (even Santina/Ladybeard might trick some fantasy Orc who is very unfamiliar with human differences, we could take for granted our lack of Familiarity penalties)

Yeah, I was simply talking about wearing the clothes. Which is what cross-dressing is.

That said, you may be significantly overestimating how obvious things necessarily are. I've had strangers address me as 'miss' a fair few times...apparently entirely because they saw me wearing my hair in a very long ponytail, usually from behind. I have never worn a skirt, but I suspect that would dramatically increase the frequency of such events.

In most clothes there's a lot more obvious discrepancies on a casual but relatively close inspection from the front, of course. If you want to disguise the presence or absence of a bust beyond such bulky clothes people just can't make a call, that would certainly be in Disguise territory. But even without that, if a more distant inspection sees a bunch of strong cues one way it's quite possible they'll not look further.

Originally Posted by Plane

Knowing how to use your generic necktie-tying skills for a particular kind of necktie?

Like maybe some have a shiny/slippery texture that your fingers could fumble with. Or maybe a different length or width of material.

Do you actually model a skill for tying ties, though?

I'm not saying it would be altogether mechanically wrong, but it's the kind of fiddly narrow and non-adventuring microskill that hardly anybody would want to keep track of and even fewer people would want to allocate points to.

Originally Posted by Plane

I just remember it as standing out in the animated Mulan movie as her reacting uniquely. It of course didn't end her masquerade, but that might just be due to her fellow grunt soldiers being low IQ or so enthused about bathing that they didn't pay attention to her awkwardness.

One factor in Mulan is that while she passed as a male, she was assumed to be a YOUNG one (ie late teens) because of her comparative androgyny when we look at the other soldiers.

Li Shang sort of had that too (his handsomeness was not a 'rough' one, he seemed more adro/bishounen compared to Yao, Ling, and Chien Po) but was clearly more masculine than "Fa Ping" (the alias that Fa Mulan assumed)

Ping seeming like the youngest of the recruits is probably why, if any of them noticed how awkward "he" was around male nudity, would just write it off as inexperience.

I think most people are aware that it's perfectly possible for someone to just be 'awkward' in various ways without an obvious explanation. Sure, maybe 'young' gets used to explain it, but it isn't needed to explain it.

(Of course, what makes Li Shang and Fa Ping look more alike than the other named soldiers is that they were drawn closer to realistic humans while the others were animated caricatures.)

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

you may be significantly overestimating how obvious things necessarily are.
I've had strangers address me as 'miss' a fair few times...apparently entirely because they saw me wearing my hair in a very long ponytail, usually from behind.

I think if we approach that Appearance = Face then it would have no penalties to passing in situations like this where the face is not visible.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Do you actually model a skill for tying ties, though?

B203 Knot-Tying at default, I would guess?

JUST for neckties perhaps that could default to something else (not sure what skill) kind of like you can roll against Sports (Baseball) to hit something with a baseball bat, or Sports (Golf) to hit something with a golf club, instead of usual weapon skills.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I'm not saying it would be altogether mechanically wrong, but it's the kind of fiddly narrow and non-adventuring microskill that hardly anybody would want to keep track of and even fewer people would want to allocate points to.

You probably wouldn't specialize in Knot-Tying (neckties) unless you worked in a men's wear department, yeah.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I think most people are aware that it's perfectly possible for someone to just be 'awkward' in various ways without an obvious explanation. Sure, maybe 'young' gets used to explain it, but it isn't needed to explain it.

Yeah, with Chien Po and Yao and Ling, they were certainly awkward in other ways besides youth, so other explanations besides Ping's youth could've been assumed to explain the awkwardness too.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

(Of course, what makes Li Shang and Fa Ping look more alike than the other named soldiers is that they were drawn closer to realistic humans while the others were animated caricatures.)

They kinda remind me of the ghostly trio (Casper's uncles)

Fatso / Ling = wide+tall
Stretch / Yao = thin+tall
Stinky / Yien Po = wide+short

I don't know if they're that far off from reality though, there are plenty of men who look like them instead of hunky like Li Shang.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Plane

I think if we approach that Appearance = Face then it would have no penalties to passing in situations like this where the face is not visible.

Yeah, but I can't see any justification whatsoever for that 'approach' in the rules.

Originally Posted by Plane

You probably wouldn't specialize in Knot-Tying (neckties) unless you worked in a men's wear department, yeah.

Pretty sure a lot of men who wear ties regularly are vastly better at tying a tie than any other application of Knot-Tying skill, which makes that a bad model.

Originally Posted by Plane

They kinda remind me of the ghostly trio (Casper's uncles)

Fatso / Ling = wide+tall
Stretch / Yao = thin+tall
Stinky / Yien Po = wide+short

I don't know if they're that far off from reality though, there are plenty of men who look like them instead of hunky like Li Shang.

My memory had exaggerated the degree to which they're caricatured, but I do think it's true that while their overall body shapes aren't too far off the charts, their depiction is a bit more to the stylized end of the scale than Li Shang or Mulan.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

...
I mean, it might if your culture has lots of really very compulsory gender-segregated but communal nude activities. Maybe.

We were required to strip in locker rooms during P.E. class. I still needed actual therapy to have any chance of doing it. I was almost glad when my vision got bad enough that taking them off let me partially pretend that I was alone.
I was never accused of being female or even feminine for that matter.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Pretty sure a lot of men who wear ties regularly are vastly better at tying a tie than any other application of Knot-Tying skill, which makes that a bad model.

There's a 2-point difference between optional specialties and other uses, does the gap need to be bigger? Maybe allow it as a technique?