Technique for Acting/Disguise to pass as opposite gender

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Plane

Only in the case of the basic forms (handsome/beautiful)

If the looks don't emphasize the sex then I would consider them to be androgynous looks.

So you figure a pretty boy-band member is equally attractive whether one is into men or women?

Originally Posted by Plane

I infer an implication of androgynous looks is that non-androgynous sexual attractiveness is either "androus" (masculine) or "gynous" (feminine) in nature.

That's a totally spurious linguistic argument.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by transmetahuman

I'm puzzled by the idea that an attractive/beautiful woman is automatically "more feminine" than an average woman.

Annie Lennox springs to mind. Whether or not you consider her truly androgenous, she certainly doesn't have exaggerated female secondary sexual characteristics, and quite a few people have found her quite attractive.

Androgynous-Transcendent would give you a +5 reaction which is better than the +4 for normal Handsome/Beautiful.

Originally Posted by Alden Loveshade

By the Basic Set p. 21, "Androgynous: If your appearance is Handsome (Beautiful) or better, you may specify that your looks appeal equally to both sexes."

The phrasing there seems a bit dated. I'm guessing that's meant to be "equally to both orientations" (androphile/gynephile)

So too seems this part:

flat reaction modifier instead of a sex dependent bonus

This sounds like it's the sex of the reactor which matters when it's the sex the reactor is attracted to that matters.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

So you figure a pretty boy-band member is equally attractive whether one is into men or women?

In terms of pure reaction bonuses, the very first tier of Attractive +1 isn't even gendered so that definitely (for some reason...) applies equally to both orientations.

As for "Androgynous Handsome" (+3) I'm not sure how else we ought to read "looks appeal equally to both".

Heterosexual men for example would react better to this pretty boy-band member than they would to someone who spent equal points on non-androgynous handsome (only a +2).

The hard cap of course still exists for "Sex Appeal" (requires attraction to sex) but I have to wonder what to do in situations where one simply does not know the biological sex, and is interacting with them (possibly flirting or being seduced) without a strong sense of sureness about it.

Then of course you have transgender folk and those who embrace that and those who do not, where "biological" v "presented" have varying importance which might be related in stats somehow.

SE32's "potential interest" seems really all-or-nothing and simplifies sexual reaction to a sex/gender as basically "you have it or you don't" which might be a little too basic?

B345's Task Difficulty Modifiers sound about right. You could just assign whatever the reactiveness is to either sex (-10 to +10) and this would be a bonus to use it against you, on top of a basic -10 penalty: so people would be +0 to seduce someone 100% attracted to that gender and -20 to seduce someone -100% attracted to that gender.

-20 is high enough that I think it would work as a soft cap without upsetting anyone. If further resistance is needed you could take the Resistant to Seduction perk or take Oblivious (advances from gender I don't prefer) or other means of increasing the soft cap

[Gumby Bush]

Note, too, that Cross-Dressing is an optional specialization for both Acting and Disguise, per the write-up for Adrian Froste (MA37).

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Gumby Bush

Note, too, that Cross-Dressing is an optional specialization for both Acting and Disguise, per the write-up for Adrian Froste (MA37).

Interesting example, hadn't noticed her before.

I guess "abstains from intimate relations" still gives you a quirk point even though it's a pretty necessary aspect of maintaining your Secret...

I guess ironically this means aside from acting/disguise to "appear as a man in general" she would be bad at it (-2, -1 relative to usual) for other purposes, like impersonating a particular woman or particular man?

[acrosome]

Well, it's been one hell of a discussion thus far...

[Alden Loveshade]

Originally Posted by Alden Loveshade

It does leave the question, which might be what you're asking, of what about having a character that's both Pitiable and has Sex Appeal, and is that even possible in game terms?

Originally Posted by whswhs

Well, of course it is. Though you have to consider that Pitiable is an advantage, whereas Sex Appeal is a skill (are you maybe thinking of gendered Attractive+ appearance?).

I'm going not by real-life or fictional examples, but by the description of Pitiable in the Basic Set p. 22. "Taken in conjunction with above-average looks, Pitiable means you are 'cute' instead of 'sexy'...." Taken literally, being Pitiable means you are not sexy--so how can you have Sex Appeal? (And yes, I understand those words are in quotation marks, likely to mean "don't take this too literally.")

That said, I do allow Pitiable and Sex Appeal to be used together--and I think someone can be both "cute" and "sexy" in fiction, the real world, and in GURPS.

[Alden Loveshade]

Originally Posted by Alden Loveshade

By the Basic Set p. 21, "Androgynous: If your appearance is Handsome (Beautiful) or better, you may specify that your looks appeal equally to both sexes...."

As real-life societies continue to change, including in views of sex/gender/etc., I do wonder if future GURPS books will expand beyond two sexes....

Originally Posted by Plane

....The phrasing there seems a bit dated. I'm guessing that's meant to be "equally to both orientations" (androphile/gynephile)

So too seems this part:

flat reaction modifier instead of a sex dependent bonus

This sounds like it's the sex of the reactor which matters when it's the sex the reactor is attracted to that matters....

Agreed. It's hard with published material to keep up with the rapid changes in society. By comparison, the Third Edition Basic Set defines Sex Appeal as "This is the ability to impress the opposite sex."

[Michael Cule]

I'd say that for both sexes there is a range of appearance in which you can successfully convince someone that you are of the opposite gender/sex/whatever.

I think this range is narrower for men than for women but that more men are in that range.

Height, build and voice are all factors. My basso will not convert to a contralto or whatever for example nor does being more than six foot tall and fat help.

However the 'Androgynous' Perk (it is a perk isn't it? Goes and checks: yep though it can be included in Attractive) means that you are in the range of your gender/sex/whatever that can pull it off.

Now, if you have magical or supertech means of covering appearance you still need a separate Acting skill to manage culturally rooted differences in behaviour including vocabulary and body language.

I suppose if we are going the transhuman/supertech route you could plug in a chip which gives you that too.

[Ulzgoroth]

Per Perks, androgynous appearance or the perk means that you need only 'minimal effort' to pass as whatever sex is convenient. Which would seem to mean that the skills and hypothetical techniques in question would only be relevant to people without those Advantages.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Michael Cule

I'd say that for both sexes there is a range of appearance in which you can successfully convince someone that you are of the opposite gender/sex/whatever.

I think this range is narrower for men than for women but that more men are in that range.

Height, build and voice are all factors. My basso will not convert to a contralto or whatever for example nor does being more than six foot tall and fat help.

The issue at play is more like how much work would need to be done (the skill and expense needed) to do certain factors.

It should be way easier for a thin person to disguise as a fat person, or a short person to disguise as a taller person, because you can add paddings/lifts with slightly more ease than you could do the reverse (suck in gut, slouch) to appear smaller.

Originally Posted by Michael Cule

However the 'Androgynous' Perk (it is a perk isn't it? Goes and checks: yep though it can be included in Attractive)

I'd forgotten about that! Kinda weird how it's a free perk you get when buying higher attractiveness...

PU2p4 "ensure that you’re mistaken for whatever sex is convenient" actually sounds like you could use Sex Appeal against people not attracted to your sex, because you are perceived as being the sex they're attracted to.

That should at least work for initial seduction attempts... there should be progressive penalties for doing that as layers are removed though. I'm assuming that perk mostly is about the face.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Per Perks, androgynous appearance or the perk means that you need only 'minimal effort' to pass as whatever sex is convenient. Which would seem to mean that the skills and hypothetical techniques in question would only be relevant to people without those Advantages.

It does seem unfortunate that Adrian (channeling Mulan no doubt) invested 4 points in her masquerade when a simple perk would have done it.

Maybe "pass" just refers to facial inspection, but "acting" is needed to do stereotypical gender habits (like how all men constantly belch and scratch themselves, right Disney?) while "disguise" is needed to do stereotypical gender wardrobe choices?

All 3 factors would coalesce into whether or not the masquerade works, though I'm not sure how you'd use them together to determine what final decision someone comes to, when suspicions are aroused...