How To Kill a Dragon

[larsdangly]

I looked at your old thread and there are a lot of interesting thoughts in there. Re. those that have to do with costs and rates of vertical movement, my feeling is that the MA of flying figures is already much, much less than their reasonable speed of free, straight line flight. And they are presumed to have the power to hover. To me, this means they have excess power to move their MA in any direction, and the MA score considers the fact that they'll be maneuvering, etc. So, I'd say just assume a vertical scale of 'hexes' similar to the horizontal scale.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

That's an interesting take on the problem, though I like the logic of it less than my suggestion re. using the disengage option. I guess it comes down to your interpretation of what it means that engaged figures can shift. If that is taken to mean that they are moving normally but with restrictions on which hexes can be entered, then a flier should be able to 'move normally' to that hex using their flight option, therefore they are flying, therefore they are no longer engaged, therefore they can keep moving as they wish. If you interpret the engaged shift as some sort of special form of restricted movement that keeps you stuck to your foe, then perhaps that option shouldn't be on the table, and the flier should have to wait till their action phase to perform a disengage action like everyone else. The logic of that second choice feels a bit less baroque to me.

I think I actually prefer your logic, too. It seems more congruent to what ground figures need to do - i.e. spend a turn disengaging, with the added option of disengaging upwards for fliers.

I was explaining the other option (declaring flying and denying engagement during movement) however because that is what the rules-as-written seem to literally say - i.e. not much, but it is what the rules seem to say.

[hcobb]

ITL102:"The options available to a figure depend on whether it is engaged, disengaged, or in HTH combat at the moment its turn to move comes"

So you can shift up, but not up, up and away.

The as-written best tactics for the 14-hex dragon are to fly past one figure per turn and hit that edge figure with a claw swipe then end the turn with your tail facing the enemy from outside their charge attack reach.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by hcobb

ITL102:"The options available to a figure depend on whether it is engaged, disengaged, or in HTH combat at the moment its turn to move comes"

So you can shift up, but not up, up and away.

The as-written best tactics for the 14-hex dragon are to fly past one figure per turn and hit that edge figure with a claw swipe then end the turn with your tail facing the enemy from outside their charge attack reach.

* As written, flying or not, and engagement or not for fliers, is a decision made at the start of the flier's turn, not an option. See:

Originally Posted by new ITL page 104

A grounded creature which wishes to fly “takes off” at the beginning of its movement turn. On its first turn in the air, it has only half of its flying MA.

and

Originally Posted by new ITL page 104

In an open space, flying creatures are not engaged by grounded ones unless they wish to be; there is room to fly over. A flier may freely cross over another figure, a fire, a wall, etc.

So, on the dragon's movement turn, it wishes to fly, takes off and is flying, and as something flying, it can say it does not with to be engaged by grounded figures, and so is not.


I don't see an as-written way to allow your fly-by claw tactic, however - where are attacks during movement, followed by more movement, allowed? (I can see it being done by winning initiative and taking advantage of at-will engagement and high flying MA, though, but I think you'd have to end a turn with a target in a front hex, no?)

[hcobb]

ITL 133: "(the flier is either hovering or taking a swipe as it flies past; neither is especially accurate)"
So this swipe as it flies past requires the dragon to stop movement?

[larsdangly]

My interpretation of the 'fly by' is that you still need to end your movement next to the target so you are in range during the action phase, but are presumed to still be in the air and are not subject to engagement unless you want to be.

[Skarg]

That was my reading too - that it's just talking about what it represents, but since it seems to have zero rules detail about it, I don't take it as an exception to the first sentence of the Aerial Combat section (on the same page): "Combat involving flying figures (whether they have riders or not) is handled like any other combat."

If it is meant to allow attacks during movement, that would be a very unusual mechanic for TFT, where all other such actions happen during the action phase. Even more unusual for TFT would be for such a rule exception to have zero rules detail. Then again, Aerial Combat is one of the least detailed sections.

(There would also seem to be a missing opportunity to respond to such attacks that could happen during movement unless counterattacks also happened then, etc.)

Of course the GM can invent rules and rulings for such things, but I'm just talking/wondering about what the rules-as-written seem to be.

[larsdangly]

Yes, I don't think Melee, as a system, can tolerate having combatants that perform actions in the course of a movement phase (other than special forms of movement like jumping). If you want to keep things moving along in an orderly fashion you should force flyers, mounted figures, vehicles, etc. to end movement specifically where they want to be when their attack to be delivered for that turn, and just note that one of the exceptional engagement rules might apply

[hcobb]

So the dragon with Strategy moves second, winds up next to exactly one figure and applies a UC V claw slash? Next turn it doesn't matter how many men move next to her as she's flying and therefore unengaged so she can move to be alone with another man that turn?

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by hcobb

So the dragon with Strategy moves second, winds up next to exactly one figure and applies a UC V claw slash?

If the map positions allow, and that seems like a good move to her, yes.

Originally Posted by hcobb

Next turn it doesn't matter how many men move next to her as she's flying and therefore unengaged so she can move to be alone with another man that turn?

No, next turn would be a new kettle of fish. If she wins initiative again, or is told to move first then she gets to keep flying, and declare flying over ground figures to avoid engagement if she wants to. But if the ground figures move first and move in a way that gets enough of them in place to Engage her, she won't yet have had her opportunity to change altitude, so she'll be Engaged, but could still use her action when her adjDX comes up to Disengage, if she wanted to.