Combatives martial arts styles

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Is that move and others like it common enough for it to warrant me adding the Stamp Kick manoeuvre or is it something that can be attempted at a default from Karate or Brawling easily enough? The default is just a -1 or -2.

Stamp kicks are extensively practiced in MCMAP. The final move in every combination I've seen is a double-stomp to the head of a prone foe. Sweep-double stomp. Trip-double stomp. Stomp kick, knee, double stomp. It's all about getting the guy down and killing him. If MCMAP got only one technique it'd be Stamp Kick.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

Stamp kicks are extensively practiced in MCMAP. The final move in every combination I've seen is a double-stomp to the head of a prone foe. Sweep-double stomp. Trip-double stomp. Stomp kick, knee, double stomp. It's all about getting the guy down and killing him. If MCMAP got only one technique it'd be Stamp Kick.

You live and learn.

I've added Stamp Kick to the list.

Thanks.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

Stamp kicks are extensively practiced in MCMAP. The final move in every combination I've seen is a double-stomp to the head of a prone foe. Sweep-double stomp. Trip-double stomp. Stomp kick, knee, double stomp. It's all about getting the guy down and killing him. If MCMAP got only one technique it'd be Stamp Kick.

I must admit, I expected to read:

"Trip-double stomp. Stomp kick, knee, double stomp. Phone rings, answer it, double stomp. Form blazing sword, kill monster, double stomp."

Or maybe I was channeling Steven Marsh?

[PaladinV]

Originally Posted by Luther

Submission Wrestling 8 points.

Primary skills: Wrestling Sport.
Secondary skills: Judo Sport, Tournament Law (SW).
Optional skills: Brawling.
Maneuvers: Arm lock [2], Choke Hold, Ground Fighting (Wrestling) [2] Head Lock, Wrist Lock.

Basically BJJ without the gi. Less grip means less technique, and in turn greater importance of strength and mass, less throws and more takedowns. Chokes are limited too, at least compared to BJJ and Judo.

I would just like to say that Submission Wrestling or Submission Grappling is not by any means less technical than BJJ. The techniques are different but the overall game is not any less complex or detailed. The biggest difference is the grips. The ultimate truth is that all the throwes with the gi began or where developed independently somewhere without it, there is very little that one can do standing with the gi that cannot be done without it using modified clinching grips. Just ask any practitioner of Greco Roman Wrestling. If we look at any of the old "Catch" styles the same thing can be noted, Lancinshire wrestling for instance, where almost all takedowns where rotational push-pull based throwes over the hip. The sub-wrestling gaurd is as complex as the BJJ gaurd with the gi it is just more focused on the butterfly gaurd, half gaurd and hip bumping than the eclectic style gaurd work made possible by the gi grips. Also with the inovation of a plethra of arm-triangle chokes and the development of new gaurd styles such as Eddie Bravo's Rubber Gaurd sub-grapplers are now pretty much on an even ground with judo and bjj guys when it comes to high percentage submissions from the back and opportunities to land chokes. I'm a fan and practitioner of almost all forms of grappling, I do not mean to critique the quoted poster, just to add a bit to the discussion. I don't have my books yet but they come on the 2nd of May. I'll make a more substantial contribution to the thread rules wise then.

[Kromm]

You might want to take note that Luther is a competitive submission wrestler. I've seen the photos and video clips. ;)

[Verjigorm]

Luther's a bitch. I seen him. I'd take him down.

Wit ha large, long, metal object. Or a smaller metal object that delivers other metal objects at high speeds. Damn that submission stuff. It hurts. So I have very bad memories of my older cousin putting me in leg holds, should that influence me against Luther? Yes it should.

Remember kids, if facing someone good at cloe-in fighting, shoot'em in the hand. Or the foot. It feally adds up to the same. Cripple those things they can cripple you with, or watch them cripple you. So shoot'em i nthe foot. Or cut off their hand. Whatever it takes, man. Just don't ty t grab'em and force'em around. Cut those lil' bastards.

Never forget the greatest stregth of the knife: If you parry, yu can cut someone. Always roll against skill, and hope you cut off their frikken leg(or arm).

[PaladinV]

You might want to take note that Luther is a competitive submission wrestler. I've seen the photos and video clips. ;)

I'm not dissing Luther. I'm not sure when his post about BJJ and Sub-grappling was made. If it was three years ago then his preception of Sub-grappling was very typical. I to am a sub-grappler, I love to do it and would recommend it to everyone. It's like surfing, it is a source which changes your life and teaches you things you can't learn anywhere else. I just thought I could add to the thread. It's frustrating because I don't have my books yet but I love this forum, you guys are my kind of gamers lol. I've been in exile over on the Wizard forums for years where there is nothing worth posting over. I sincerly hope that no one takes offense to me or my opinions and I promise to be less annoying once my books come and I can make actual GURPS contributions to threads. Thanks :).

PS Amoung folks like Luther and myself there has been for years a sort of friendly (and sometimes unfriendly) rivalry, going all the way back to the early days of BJJ between the gi crowd and the no-gi crowd. The gi guys all say that we are not technical because we don't train with the gi, we all say that we are and they should respect the rash gaurd. I hope that like me, Luther finds this a bit commical.

[Oggsmash]

I dont think Luthur meant it as a diss to say Gi-less grappling is less technical. A better thing to say would be that Gi-less grappling is a bit more physical, and a strong, fast person can get away with some things against an experienced person that simply will not fly against the same guy when they both have a gi on. This is fact. Yes guys like Bravo are modifying BJJ to be more and more aplicable in no gi situations. But I also notice alot of Bravo's guys always have long shorts, knee braces and rash guards on. In other words ALOT of clothing for no-gi guys. Fact is shorts, no shirt and alot of sweat ALOT of things in BJJ are up in the air.

I had 9 MMa fights from '98 to 2001, and train guys now (just had 3 fight in Va last weekend). So take my opinion as you like.

[PaladinV]

I dont think Luthur meant it as a diss to say Gi-less grappling is less technical. A better thing to say would be that Gi-less grappling is a bit more physical, and a strong, fast person can get away with some things against an experienced person that simply will not fly against the same guy when they both have a gi on. This is fact. Yes guys like Bravo are modifying BJJ to be more and more aplicable in no gi situations. But I also notice alot of Bravo's guys always have long shorts, knee braces and rash guards on. In other words ALOT of clothing for no-gi guys. Fact is shorts, no shirt and alot of sweat ALOT of things in BJJ are up in the air.

I had 9 MMa fights from '98 to 2001, and train guys now (just had 3 fight in Va last weekend). So take my opinion as you like.

Oh yea, I do agree. I mean, the game is faster and much more slippery, I'm not denying that. I was not offended by Luther. I guess I'm saying that from a gaming stand point I see no reason to take anything away from sub-wrestling. Or judo or sambo for that matter or any number of "Olde" wrestling styles. They are all pretty close to the same thing anyway really. The different arts have different emphasis but an arm bar is an arm bar across the board. They all have an vast number of techniques and strategies in them and we could litterally map out maybe 25 styles of just grappling martial arts that I know of, each as complex as the next. I'm not argueing that the game is not different from BJJ. Even in submission grappling you see guys wearing rash gaurds and the knee braces, a rash gaurd makes alot of difference. I usually wear a long sleaved rash gaurd, board shorts and neoprene on my knees and ankles. I have worn the old bell bottom kick boxing pants to grapple in, they fit tight except at the lower legs and have the double crotch so you still have plenty of mobility. Bravo has said that he wears the gi pants to soak up sweat and allow him a better hold.

I put that PS up there as a bit of humor. I don't want to get a reputation as a flamer and nothing I've stated has been intended to be flame or to be an insult to anyone. I really like it here and I'm just excited to participate.

[Luther]

Hi guys, hi doc,

I don't post and follow this forum anymore like I'd love to. I'm working full time and I use all my (little) free time to train, get in shape and compete. It's been weeks since the last game :-(

I didn't get back to my old write-ups, I guess after the MA playtest I would change them. Anyway Oggsmash nailed it. Without gi and clothing (and handles, and powerful grips), you can power more easily through techniques. Without the gi, explosiveness and speed (friction slows you down) are more difficult to counter with technique.

That's why very technical guys try to use long sleeved rashguards, knee braces or pants -- yeah even Eddie Bravo aknowledged the importance of clothes. In fact you are wearing a sort of very tight gi :)

Also without grips some strategies are severily limited or totally useless: De La Riva Guard, Spider Guard, Crab Guard (like Roleta's game), frontal chokes, etc. OTOH most no-gi games are applicable to gi-game: I personally used rubber guard to great effect in bjj... until my knees started to blow out!

To summarize my point, physical attributes are more important in the no-gi game compared to the gi game.


PS: Paladin, no rivalry with sub guys. My best results were in sub competitions when I was more athletic, fit and less injuried: so I am sub guy ;)