Combatives martial arts styles

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Pragmatic

Will the Martial Arts book make maneuvers worthwhile? As I understand it right now (as a GURPS collector, rather than player *sigh*), getting more than a few maneuvers isn't really worthwhile, as you can get a better deal by just improving the stat or the underlying skill. However, I like having the extra description of having a maneuver...

I agree that this is a problem with the 4e rules as we see them now, but I hope that SJGames will fix this with Martial Arts. I liked the manuever costs in 3e and I hope that it becomes worthwhile again to have more than two manuvers for a given skill.

[Luther]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Brazilian Jui-Jitsu Cost: 11/-

Primary skills: Judo, Wrestling
Secondary skills: Judo Sport, Wrestling Sport,
Optional skills: Tournament Law, Brawling
Manoeuvres: Arm lock [2 points], Breakfall, Choke Hold [2 points], Ground Fighting [2 points]

This represents a fairly hard, full-contact version of the sport. A softer, more sportsmanlike version might switch the Sport versions of Judo and Wrestling to Primary skills and drop Brawling.

Commentary from people who actually practice this sport is welcome. Luther, this means you.

Sorry, I missed the thread. There is a nice article in Pyramid: Do You Tap?. For a more orthodox take here is my contribution for 3e (note the spelling, and the point cost):


Old Style Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu 10 points.

Primary skills: Wrestling, Brawling.
Secondary skills: Judo.
Optional skills: Intimidation.
Maneuvers: Arm lock, Choke Hold, Ground Fighting (Brawling), Ground Fighting (Wrestling) [2], Head Butt, Head Lock, Leg Grapple.

This is the classic old style BJJ, as it was thought and fought in Rio's streets back in the old days. The emphasis is on achieving a superior position on the ground and striking the opponent, with punches, elbows and head butts. It's similar to today mixed martial arts styles, but more rough. There is some interesting footage in Gracie in Action tapes.


Sport Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu 10 points.

Primary skills: Judo Sport.
Secondary skills: Wrestling Sport, Tournament Law (BJJ).
Optional skills: Brawling.
Maneuvers: Arm lock [2], Breakfall, Choke Hold [2], Ground Fighting (Judo) [2], Head Lock, Wrist Lock

The split between vale tudo and sport oriented practitioners became serious in 70s when competitions got increasingly common. Later Carlson Jr. was very active in developing the system and new rules. This style is usually thought in modern academies, it rely heavily on guard work and submissions.


Submission Wrestling 8 points.

Primary skills: Wrestling Sport.
Secondary skills: Judo Sport, Tournament Law (SW).
Optional skills: Brawling.
Maneuvers: Arm lock [2], Choke Hold, Ground Fighting (Wrestling) [2] Head Lock, Wrist Lock.

Basically BJJ without the gi. Less grip means less technique, and in turn greater importance of strength and mass, less throws and more takedowns. Chokes are limited too, at least compared to BJJ and Judo.

[Icelander]

Luther, this is great.

All that is missing is BJJ as a combative (stripped of all sporting elements and only focusing on hurting the opponent). I know that the US Special Forces and other special operation forces learn this and would be interested in seeing how you would stat a purely functional style based on BJJ.

Wrestling is inferior to Judo in 3e rules, is it not? There is no reason ever to have both, is there?

[PaladinV]

Originally Posted by Luther

Submission Wrestling 8 points.

Primary skills: Wrestling Sport.
Secondary skills: Judo Sport, Tournament Law (SW).
Optional skills: Brawling.
Maneuvers: Arm lock [2], Choke Hold, Ground Fighting (Wrestling) [2] Head Lock, Wrist Lock.

Basically BJJ without the gi. Less grip means less technique, and in turn greater importance of strength and mass, less throws and more takedowns. Chokes are limited too, at least compared to BJJ and Judo.

I would just like to say that Submission Wrestling or Submission Grappling is not by any means less technical than BJJ. The techniques are different but the overall game is not any less complex or detailed. The biggest difference is the grips. The ultimate truth is that all the throwes with the gi began or where developed independently somewhere without it, there is very little that one can do standing with the gi that cannot be done without it using modified clinching grips. Just ask any practitioner of Greco Roman Wrestling. If we look at any of the old "Catch" styles the same thing can be noted, Lancinshire wrestling for instance, where almost all takedowns where rotational push-pull based throwes over the hip. The sub-wrestling gaurd is as complex as the BJJ gaurd with the gi it is just more focused on the butterfly gaurd, half gaurd and hip bumping than the eclectic style gaurd work made possible by the gi grips. Also with the inovation of a plethra of arm-triangle chokes and the development of new gaurd styles such as Eddie Bravo's Rubber Gaurd sub-grapplers are now pretty much on an even ground with judo and bjj guys when it comes to high percentage submissions from the back and opportunities to land chokes. I'm a fan and practitioner of almost all forms of grappling, I do not mean to critique the quoted poster, just to add a bit to the discussion. I don't have my books yet but they come on the 2nd of May. I'll make a more substantial contribution to the thread rules wise then.

[Kromm]

You might want to take note that Luther is a competitive submission wrestler. I've seen the photos and video clips. ;)

[Ciaran]

Hey Toadkiller. Any word on an eta for playtest?

[Polydamas]

Could someone tell me how martial arts styles are priced, and any simple special rules which they used in 3e? I never got MA 3e, and plan to get MA 4e, but would understand if this is too much copyrighted material to give free.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

Hey Toadkiller. Any word on an eta for playtest?

Sorry, I can't divulge anything like that - I'm a co-author on it, but playtest announcements, timing, etc. aren't something I can discuss.

[Icelander]

S.C.A.R.S. Cost: 6/-

Primary skills: Brawling
Secondary skills: Karate
Optional skills: None
Manoeuvres: Aggressive Parry*, Elbow Strike, Hit Location (Brawling), Knee Strike, Riposte (Brawling)

*Note, the style does not teach traditional blocks or parries and hence every parry using S.C.A.R.S. is automatically an Aggressive Parry. This costs no points.

I am aware that the advertisements surrounding this style are mostly false and that the claims made by proponents are patently ridiculous. Nevertheless, the style was taught to BUD/S trainees at one point in the 80’s and that implies that there are at least some marginally useful techniques. This version of the style is presented as being more helpful than no training at all, but GMs are free to vary it for their campaigns.

Any comments would be welcomed, especially from people with some martial arts experience.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Manoeuvres: Aggressive Parry*, Elbow Strike, Hit Location (Brawling), Knee Strike

*Note, the style does not teach traditional blocks or parries and hence every parry using S.C.A.R.S. is automatically an Aggressive Parry. This costs no points.

You should require them to pay for this, unless the intention is that they cannot do normal parries but still do APs at the normal default.