Created Fire

Dalin · 12-06-2018, 10:50 PM

An orc shaman in tonight's game had the clever idea of creating a big fire to divide the party and block a passage. He was promptly killed, which the players thought would extinguish the fire. My understanding, however, is that killing casters doesn't end their spells; it only prevents them from maintaining them. So, Create Fire would still last for the remainder of its 1-minute duration. Right?

This also made us wonder about the effect of a 15-foot diameter, 12-foot high area of flame on the integrity of the dungeon. Would all that heat cause any cracking in the roof? How long might that take? This was just idle speculation on our part because we figured that one minute wouldn't be long enough to appreciably heat the rock, but could it be a plausible strategy for attempting to collapse a passageway? I mean, it's obviously plausible enough for DF, depending what the GM wants, but I just get nerdy about these things.

I suppose one could extrapolate from the existing rules for breaking through stone, though fire definitely doesn't count as a crushing or cutting attack. Three feet of stone has 468 DR (Exploits, p. 82) which at 1d-1 per turn would take 187 turns to reduce to the minimum DR 3. Then you'd be averaging .5 damage per turn (1d-4 with the DR) versus the 135 hit points, so another 270 turns to "destroy" three-feet of stone. By this flimsy logic, you might expect to start causing a partial collapse in eight minutes and might fill a ten foot high passage with rubble after maintaining the fire for 30 minutes.

~~evileeyore~~ · 12-06-2018, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dalin

So, Create Fire would still last for the remainder of its 1-minute duration. Right?

That's how I've always ruled it.

Quote:

I mean, it's obviously plausible enough for DF, depending what the GM wants, but I just get nerdy about these things.

A campfire, which is nowhere as much fire and heat as your "15-foot diameter, 12-foot high" column can cause collapses in natural caves... so yes. I'd say that much fire could collapse a dungeon ceiling.

zuljita · 12-07-2018, 07:47 AM

See Mage Hunter (Pyramid 3/109) to see a way to dispel ongoing spells when their caster dies. The presence of a power to do that is pretty clear that it's not automatic.

Regarding a cave in: so many other factors at play in real life like the kind of stone involved, the depth and so on. In general I'd avoid letting fire fill the void of earth spells though. You'd figure locals would know if the caves are vulnerable to such an attack since they cook food in the caves.

Kromm · 12-07-2018, 08:15 AM

It takes fire a long time to damage stone. What's really killer isn't fire . . . it's fire that burns down to coals for a few hours and then gets quenched with cool water. I'd generally say that Create Fire isn't in itself very useful for demolishing tunnels, but if you maintain it for 30+ minutes and then put it out with water (Create Water, for instance), the area in contact with the water (normally meaning the ground) will crack and become not much tougher than loose earth or sand.

Dalin · 12-07-2018, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kromm

I'd generally say that Create Fire isn't in itself very useful for demolishing tunnels, but if you maintain it for 30+ minutes and then put it out with water (Create Water, for instance), the area in contact with the water (normally meaning the ground) will crack and become not much tougher than loose earth or sand.

Ahhh... the old disintegrate-the-floor-to-get-to-the-next-level trick!

Dalin · 12-07-2018, 08:47 AM

I just remembered another fire question that came up during our game. Under "Ordinary Fire" on page 68 of Exploits, it says that you take 1d-3 damage per partial turn or 1d-1 per full turn in flames. Thus, when the orc first engulfed the PCs, they had a chance to take the lesser amount of damage if they could make it to a non-flaming hex on their turn. Everyone thought this was quite elegant and believable.

Later, however, when the party was split and the fire was going to continue for another 50 combat turns, some of the PCs on one side ran through to the other. This took most of them two turns. (There were bodies strewn about the floor, so a number of hexes cost extra movement points to cross.) We weren't quite sure how to manage this. Technically, on the first turn they were outside the flame at first and then ran into it. Since it was a partial turn in the flame, that would be 1d-3. Then on the second turn, they started in the flames and then exited the flames, so that's 1d-3 again. This seemed correct by the letter of the rules, but felt a bit off since they spent most of two turns in the flames.

Did we handle that correctly?

(As I type this, the snow is coming down heavily outside my Minnesota window; a Create Fire spell seems especially appealing!)

12-06-2018, 10:50 PM	#1
Dalin Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Saint Paul, MN	Created Fire An orc shaman in tonight's game had the clever idea of creating a big fire to divide the party and block a passage. He was promptly killed, which the players thought would extinguish the fire. My understanding, however, is that killing casters doesn't end their spells; it only prevents them from maintaining them. So, Create Fire would still last for the remainder of its 1-minute duration. Right? This also made us wonder about the effect of a 15-foot diameter, 12-foot high area of flame on the integrity of the dungeon. Would all that heat cause any cracking in the roof? How long might that take? This was just idle speculation on our part because we figured that one minute wouldn't be long enough to appreciably heat the rock, but could it be a plausible strategy for attempting to collapse a passageway? I mean, it's obviously plausible enough for DF, depending what the GM wants, but I just get nerdy about these things. I suppose one could extrapolate from the existing rules for breaking through stone, though fire definitely doesn't count as a crushing or cutting attack. Three feet of stone has 468 DR (*Exploits*, p. 82) which at 1d-1 per turn would take 187 turns to reduce to the minimum DR 3. Then you'd be averaging .5 damage per turn (1d-4 with the DR) versus the 135 hit points, so another 270 turns to "destroy" three-feet of stone. By this flimsy logic, you might expect to start causing a partial collapse in eight minutes and might fill a ten foot high passage with rubble after maintaining the fire for 30 minutes.

12-07-2018, 07:47 AM	#3
zuljita Join Date: May 2008	Re: Created Fire See Mage Hunter (Pyramid 3/109) to see a way to dispel ongoing spells when their caster dies. The presence of a power to do that is pretty clear that it's not automatic. Regarding a cave in: so many other factors at play in real life like the kind of stone involved, the depth and so on. In general I'd avoid letting fire fill the void of earth spells though. You'd figure locals would know if the caves are vulnerable to such an attack since they cook food in the caves. __________________ Running 3 GURPS games: DFRPG, Supers and a weird Evil Hogwart's (ish) game. Check out my blog: Dungeons on Automatic

12-07-2018, 08:15 AM	#4
Kromm *GURPS* Line Editor Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Montréal, Québec	Re: Created Fire It takes fire a long time to damage stone. What's really killer isn't fire . . . it's fire that burns down to coals for a few hours and then gets quenched with cool water. I'd generally say that Create Fire isn't in itself very useful for demolishing tunnels, but if you maintain it for 30+ minutes and then put it out with water (Create Water, for instance), the area in contact with the water (normally meaning the ground) will crack and become not much tougher than loose earth or sand. __________________ Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com> *GURPS* Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games My DreamWidth [Just *GURPS* News]

12-07-2018, 08:47 AM	#6
Dalin Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Saint Paul, MN	Re: Created Fire I just remembered another fire question that came up during our game. Under "Ordinary Fire" on page 68 of *Exploits, it says that you take 1d-3 damage per partial turn or 1d-1 per full turn in flames. Thus, when the orc first engulfed the PCs, they had a chance to take the lesser amount of damage if they could make it to a non-flaming hex on their turn. Everyone thought this was quite elegant and believable. Later, however, when the party was split and the fire was going to continue for another 50 combat turns, some of the PCs on one side ran through to the other. This took most of them two turns. (There were bodies strewn about the floor, so a number of hexes cost extra movement points to cross.) We weren't quite sure how to manage this. Technically, on the first turn they were outside the flame at first and then ran into it. Since it was a partial turn in the flame, that would be 1d-3. Then on the second turn, they started in the flames and then exited the flames, so that's 1d-3 again. This seemed correct by the letter of the rules, but felt a bit off since they spent most* of two turns in the flames. Did we handle that correctly? (As I type this, the snow is coming down heavily outside my Minnesota window; a Create Fire spell seems especially appealing!)