Wishes

robertsconley · 09-26-2018, 01:23 PM

So purchasing Lesser Wishes with XP seems interesting and reasonable except for this

Quote:

(5) A wish will grant its user one true answer to any yes-or no question, from the GM.

It seems to me if this is within a setting that it would be a very different place than most that are depicted in history or fantasy.

larsdangly · 09-26-2018, 01:31 PM

TFT has always been a very 'game-y' sort of game; I think seems to SJ enjoy playing with the conventions of roleplaying games and settings, particularly if it opens up an opportunity for players to get involved with really roleplaying and interacting with the setting. I view this idea in this light, as this action gives the player some 'agency' to set the terms of what his or her character can know and do. Anyway, I'm good with it. And the 'meta' justification is easy. It could manifest as a dream, or advice from a trusted mystical advisor, or a message delivered from a goofy animal, or whatever.

robertsconley · 09-26-2018, 01:59 PM

Except that NPCs will also have access to this.

Hence my comment that a setting where this exist will be different if it could be bought with XP. There would be relatively wide spread access among those with power and experience. They would have access to a oracle that can provide a definitive yes or no to a single question. Hard to keep critical things hidden or a mystery in that situation.

Even in a campaign that adopts that the PC are "special" it would be hard for a referee to keep something hidden or a mystery. Not trivial things obviously but as the campaign plays out and a critical question emerge this provides a way to get a definitive yes or no answer.

Now getting a lesser wish and thus a yes/no question by summoning a demon, that I don't have an issue with. That situation carries with it obvious risks along with in-game stigma.

And I understand it a trade off between the other benefits of having a lesser wish on tap. Nor do I have an issue of characters having access to the other options of a lesser wish. Just to the yes/no question part.

Skarg · 09-26-2018, 02:06 PM

I don't like anything that forces an unlimited true answer from the GM, even just yes/no. It took me one player getting one crystal ball reading in my original TFT campaign to get me to decide I did not want crystal balls or the Trance spell to exist (at least, not without major elements of vagueness and unreliability added) in my campaigns.

Otherwise, why doesn't the Duke of Dran have a hunter/killer team including at least one wizard with the Trance spell constantly narrowing down where Tollenkar is and how to take him out? Throw in some Astral Projection and Demon (infinite teleportation) attacks, and anyone with some wizards with those spells in any deadly conflict has an extremely powerful magical spy/assassin force which will be really hard to defend against. And that's neither the game I usually want to play (though I'm thinking about running it as an experiment and demonstration of how evil it is), nor something I want to think about as a GM considering what should be going on in my worlds. (i.e. I don't want all the powerful rulers and guildmasters and other schemers to be playing a world-spanning game of 20 questions followed up by astral spying, scrying, crystal ball scrying, or wish-knowing, and midnight Demon assaults.)

I don't think I really like the ability to get wishes from XP or IQ 9 demons and use them for "I want to roll triple damage on my aimed shot to the head", either. And I haven't worked out the new odds for surviving coercing a greater wish from an IQ 11 demon yet, but I'm worried it may be easy enough to lead to industrial Wish generation.

Fortunately, it's pretty easy to tweak all unwanted things in TFT without breaking much.

robertsconley · 09-26-2018, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarg

Fortunately, it's pretty easy to tweak all unwanted things in TFT without breaking much.

Thanks for highlighting other problematic issues related to this.

While referees always can tweak things and set the rules for the campaign. The point of bringing this up now is raise the issue of whether this should be the default as part of the published rules 30 years later.

This raised a red flag as I had with issues that occurred because of absolute truth effects in other game systems.

Shadekeep · 09-26-2018, 02:37 PM

Wishes hardly ever came up in my campaigns. I think in part because they seem kind of hinkey just existing out there on their own. Any campaign I run now that includes wishes would have agency behind them, so if you didn't get a wish from demons, you'd have to get it from djinn or fae or something else with reality-warping powers. Generating one yourself via XP is an interesting idea, but in those cases it'd make it an even more limited wish than the lesser wish already is. It would be more like a one-shot Heroic Feat kind of thing.

And winkling a guaranteed true-false answer from the GM via one is just wrong. GMs should be in such situations more like the Oracle of Delphi - correct, but open to many interpretations.

I love TFT, but I house-rule the heck out of it all the same. ^_^

robertsconley · 09-26-2018, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarg

Otherwise, why doesn't the Duke of Dran have a hunter/killer team including at least one wizard with the Trance spell constantly narrowing down where Tollenkar is and how to take him out?

Yup illustrates the problem this effect has for the setting. Although the fact that the Crystal Ball costs 50,000 and 40 weeks of time and that Trance is an IQ 16 makes those two less problematic. Still their presence logically lead to PC or NPCs kill teams to cement one's hold onto power.

Skarg · 09-26-2018, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robertsconley

Yup illustrates the problem this effect has for the setting. Although the fact that the Crystal Ball costs 50,000 and 40 weeks of time and that Trance is an IQ 16 makes those two less problematic. Still their presence logically lead to PC or NPCs kill teams to cement one's hold onto power.

Yes, though the limitation on powerful magic, especially spells, is reduced if you accept the setting idea that there are Wizards Guild chapters in cities which will sell their services to someone willing to pay for it.

I think it's an interesting situation but it has me and the people I play with think about then what wizards are willing and available where with which spells, and whom will they do business with for how much, etc. Which I like but, like the consideration of powerful people, has me going through the spell lists thinking about which spells I really want to be known in the campaign, whether they should be adjusted, etc.

Chris Goodwin · 09-26-2018, 04:09 PM

Summon Demon and its wishes come straight out of the original Advanced Wizard, as does Summon Lesser Demon (without any wish granting capability). The differentiation into Lesser and Greater Wishes, and allowing the summoning of a Lesser Demon to grant Lesser Wishes, as well as 500 XP for the Lesser Wish, is new in the new version. But wishes in AW had the full functionality of both Lesser and Greater Wishes. (Including using them for full restoration of ST or returning the recently dead to life, at a cost of 5 attribute points, and the true yes-no answer from the GM.)

In other words, for the new version, some of the original Wish functionality has been turned into a Lesser Wish, and given to Lesser Demons (or 500 XP). But none of it is new functionality.

Summon Lesser Demon and Summon Demon have the same IQ requirements and ST costs as in AW. The IQ's of the demons themselves have been toned down, which may or may not be a good thing.

larsdangly · 09-26-2018, 04:31 PM

This also hasn't been an issue in my campaign. Maybe because I've mostly had the same half dozen players over the last 40 years and they just don't care about 'gaming' these sorts of things. But, it wouldn't bother me if they did. I feel like the conventions of table top roleplaying campaigns ca. 2018 have found their way to a really extreme view of the role of the GM and his or her control of the world and the flow of information, power, events and resources to the players. I prefer campaigns where players have a lot more say in these things and the GM is more of a fellow 'yes, and' improviser. These sorts of oracular powers work with that world view.

09-26-2018, 01:31 PM	#2
larsdangly Join Date: Dec 2017	Re: Wishes TFT has always been a very 'game-y' sort of game; I think seems to SJ enjoy playing with the conventions of roleplaying games and settings, particularly if it opens up an opportunity for players to get involved with really roleplaying and interacting with the setting. I view this idea in this light, as this action gives the player some 'agency' to set the terms of what his or her character can know and do. Anyway, I'm good with it. And the 'meta' justification is easy. It could manifest as a dream, or advice from a trusted mystical advisor, or a message delivered from a goofy animal, or whatever.

09-26-2018, 01:59 PM	#3
robertsconley Join Date: Jul 2006	Re: Wishes Except that NPCs will also have access to this. Hence my comment that a setting where this exist will be different if it could be bought with XP. There would be relatively wide spread access among those with power and experience. They would have access to a oracle that can provide a definitive yes or no to a single question. Hard to keep critical things hidden or a mystery in that situation. Even in a campaign that adopts that the PC are "special" it would be hard for a referee to keep something hidden or a mystery. Not trivial things obviously but as the campaign plays out and a critical question emerge this provides a way to get a definitive yes or no answer. Now getting a lesser wish and thus a yes/no question by summoning a demon, that I don't have an issue with. That situation carries with it obvious risks along with in-game stigma. And I understand it a trade off between the other benefits of having a lesser wish on tap. Nor do I have an issue of characters having access to the other options of a lesser wish. Just to the yes/no question part.

09-26-2018, 02:06 PM	#4
Skarg Join Date: May 2015	Re: Wishes I don't like anything that forces an unlimited true answer from the GM, even just yes/no. It took me one player getting one crystal ball reading in my original TFT campaign to get me to decide I did not want crystal balls or the Trance spell to exist (at least, not without major elements of vagueness and unreliability added) in my campaigns. Otherwise, why doesn't the Duke of Dran have a hunter/killer team including at least one wizard with the Trance spell constantly narrowing down where Tollenkar is and how to take him out? Throw in some Astral Projection and Demon (infinite teleportation) attacks, and anyone with some wizards with those spells in any deadly conflict has an extremely powerful magical spy/assassin force which will be really hard to defend against. And that's neither the game I usually want to play (though I'm thinking about running it as an experiment and demonstration of how evil it is), nor something I want to think about as a GM considering what should be going on in my worlds. (i.e. I don't want all the powerful rulers and guildmasters and other schemers to be playing a world-spanning game of 20 questions followed up by astral spying, scrying, crystal ball scrying, or wish-knowing, and midnight Demon assaults.) I don't think I really like the ability to get wishes from XP or IQ 9 demons and use them for "I want to roll triple damage on my aimed shot to the head", either. And I haven't worked out the new odds for surviving coercing a greater wish from an IQ 11 demon yet, but I'm worried it may be easy enough to lead to industrial Wish generation. Fortunately, it's pretty easy to tweak all unwanted things in TFT without breaking much.

09-26-2018, 02:37 PM	#6
Shadekeep Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: Aerlith	Re: Wishes Wishes hardly ever came up in my campaigns. I think in part because they seem kind of hinkey just existing out there on their own. Any campaign I run now that includes wishes would have agency behind them, so if you didn't get a wish from demons, you'd have to get it from djinn or fae or something else with reality-warping powers. Generating one yourself via XP is an interesting idea, but in those cases it'd make it an even more limited wish than the lesser wish already is. It would be more like a one-shot Heroic Feat kind of thing. And winkling a guaranteed true-false answer from the GM via one is just wrong. GMs should be in such situations more like the Oracle of Delphi - correct, but open to many interpretations. I love TFT, but I house-rule the heck out of it all the same. ^_^ Last edited by Shadekeep; 09-26-2018 at 02:38 PM. Reason: phraseology

09-26-2018, 04:09 PM	#9
Chris Goodwin Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Hillsboro, Oregon, USA	Re: Wishes Summon Demon and its wishes come straight out of the original Advanced Wizard, as does Summon Lesser Demon (without any wish granting capability). The differentiation into Lesser and Greater Wishes, and allowing the summoning of a Lesser Demon to grant Lesser Wishes, as well as 500 XP for the Lesser Wish, is new in the new version. But wishes in AW had the full functionality of both Lesser and Greater Wishes. (Including using them for full restoration of ST or returning the recently dead to life, at a cost of 5 attribute points, and the true yes-no answer from the GM.) In other words, for the new version, some of the original Wish functionality has been turned into a Lesser Wish, and given to Lesser Demons (or 500 XP). But none of it is new functionality. Summon Lesser Demon and Summon Demon have the same IQ requirements and ST costs as in AW. The IQ's of the demons themselves have been toned down, which may or may not be a good thing. __________________ Chris Goodwin I've started a subreddit for discussion of INWO and Illuminati. Check it out!

09-26-2018, 04:31 PM	#10
larsdangly Join Date: Dec 2017	Re: Wishes This also hasn't been an issue in my campaign. Maybe because I've mostly had the same half dozen players over the last 40 years and they just don't care about 'gaming' these sorts of things. But, it wouldn't bother me if they did. I feel like the conventions of table top roleplaying campaigns ca. 2018 have found their way to a really extreme view of the role of the GM and his or her control of the world and the flow of information, power, events and resources to the players. I prefer campaigns where players have a lot more say in these things and the GM is more of a fellow 'yes, and' improviser. These sorts of oracular powers work with that world view.