Condensing Spells

[Steve Jackson]

There are places in the Spell Table where a higher level spell should arguably be the same as the lower level spell, just cast with more understanding and therefore a more potent result.

Should Iron Flesh and Diamond Flesh [not published yet, but it's what you think it is] have the SAME cost as Stone Flesh, so in effect the higher wizzes are doing the same spell but better? That might get them used more.

What if we had Turn Missiles at IQ 10 (missile just barely misses), Dispel Missiles at 12, and Reverse Missiles at 14, all at the same cost? (A mechanical problem with that is that I simply have no more room in the Spell Table in Wizard.)

What if improved Fire/Shadow/Wall spells all had the same cost for increased area of effect?

[tomc]

We always played that higher level spells included the lower ones. Such as 7 Hex Wall gives you 3 hex wall and 1 hex wall, Lightning came with Fireball and Magic Fist, etc.

So this proposal feels like a little more of the same. A greater effect in exchange for higher requisite IQ. I like it.

[Shostak]

I'd keep them separate. Magic Fist ain't no Fireball. And how would that work for Summoning spells? Would you get Summon 7-hex Dragon for the same fatigue cost as Summon 4-Hex Dragon? That just seems dangerous to me.

[Skarg]

* FWIW, the Codex had it that you could learn the higher versions without using more IQ Cost, but I think you still needed to do the in-game learning actions in AW (find a book or teacher, spend time). But requiring each version to be learned independently could be interesting too.

* I think it's important/interesting that there remain at least some differences in spell ST cost for different power levels, or else you remove a choice/tradeoff which makes things less interesting. However if e.g. when you learned Summon Dragon, Summon Small Dragon became cheaper for you, that could be an interesting option.

* Cast Flesh spells were one thing, but a single self-powered Stone Flesh ring (stacked w. Fine Chainmal & Warrior for 9 total protection) went a long way to undermine my first TFT campaign. Hopefully Iron Flesh will still require 14-hex dragon hides and Diamond Flesh will have even rarer components. Personally, I'd probably add a category of items that can't be self-powered and put the Flesh enchantments in it.

[JLV]

I'm not so sure that every spell needs to be in Wizard; assuming, that is, that you are still going to expand the spell lists in the AM/AW/ITL combined book (with things like LIGHT, and whatnot). If my assumption is correct, just add the extra spells in there and keep the basic Wizard relatively simple...

I don't know that I agree that every advanced spell should encompass all the lesser spells (some, maybe, on a case-by-case basis, but definitely not all). I could see saying that it replaced the lesser version (in IQ limit terms), but not that you get three spells for the price of one. To me that's just a "gamey" way of avoiding the IQ limits...

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by JLV

I'm not so sure that every spell needs to be in Wizard; assuming, that is, that you are still going to expand the spell lists in the AM/AW/ITL combined book (with things like LIGHT, and whatnot). If my assumption is correct, just add the extra spells in there and keep the basic Wizard relatively simple...

Yes, if Wizard is still/again meant as a lite intro product.

Wizard was a learning product, and something that only cost $2.95 and got you a nice map and counters. The spell list was detachable, but also (FWIW - not trying to subvert the publishing plan, just saying) I almost never used Melee or Wizard after getting Advanced Melee/Wizard, except for rare peeks to look at the art or figure out why someone remembered the rules differently (we always preferred the AM/AW rules, though I later found out that not everyone did).

Originally Posted by JLV

I don't know that I agree that every advanced spell should encompass all the lesser spells (some, maybe, on a case-by-case basis, but definitely not all). I could see saying that it replaced the lesser version (in IQ limit terms), but not that you get three spells for the price of one. To me that's just a "gamey" way of avoiding the IQ limits...

I can see pros and cons to either way.

One point though that I didn't see mentioned is that IF there is a limit to total IQ Cost then someone wanting to go from e.g. Fire to 3-Hex Fire is faced with a kind of annoying and even-more-gamey-seeming dilemma of choices:

i.e. it makes sense to want a more powerful version of the spell as you reach IQ 12, but if you have to spend 1 IQ Cost for 3-Hex Fire on top of Fire, do you want to have someone wipe your mind of normal Fire so he can learn a different spell, but if he does, now he has to spend 2 ST to light his cigar instead of 1? Etc.

[ak_aramis]

Originally Posted by tomc

We always played that higher level spells included the lower ones. Such as 7 Hex Wall gives you 3 hex wall and 1 hex wall, Lightning came with Fireball and Magic Fist, etc.

So this proposal feels like a little more of the same. A greater effect in exchange for higher requisite IQ. I like it.

same here. I also like it.

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

There are places in the Spell Table where a higher level spell should arguably be the same as the lower level spell, just cast with more understanding and therefore a more potent result.

Should Iron Flesh and Diamond Flesh [not published yet, but it's what you think it is] have the SAME cost as Stone Flesh, so in effect the higher wizzes are doing the same spell but better? That might get them used more.

What if we had Turn Missiles at IQ 10 (missile just barely misses), Dispel Missiles at 12, and Reverse Missiles at 14, all at the same cost? (A mechanical problem with that is that I simply have no more room in the Spell Table in Wizard.)

What if improved Fire/Shadow/Wall spells all had the same cost for increased area of effect?

Hi Steve,
The flesh spells are SO much more powerful that I would be leery about keeping them at the low fatigue ST cost for all. Gaining extra armor is huge.

I'm not troubled by having more spells in ItL than in the Wizard microgame.

As for other spells being supersets of earlier spells, I'm not troubled by that.

Warm regards, Rick.

[David Bofinger]

• If the primary constraint is space, then the cost of the spell isn't such a big deal. "IRON FLESH (3+1/T) Includes Stone Flesh, similar but 6 hits stopped," takes space, but the "3+1/T" bit is in not really the problem.
• All the flesh spells should increase unarmed damage.
• From a believability POV I'm OK with it costing more ST. It's a more powerful spell.
• If I have a problem with cost of the flesh spells it's the zero cost of the Stone Flesh magic item. Ditto Blur.
• Whether more powerful spells should cost more depends to some extent on how fast you expect Wizard ST available for casting to increase. If you expect them to have ST in e.g. their staff then they need to have something to spend it on in fights.

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by David Bofinger

• If the primary constraint is space, then the cost of the spell isn't such a big deal. "IRON FLESH (3+1/T) Includes Stone Flesh, similar but 6 hits stopped," takes space, but the "3+1/T" bit is in not really the problem.
• All the flesh spells should increase unarmed damage.
• From a believability POV I'm OK with it costing more ST. It's a more powerful spell.
• If I have a problem with cost of the flesh spells it's the zero cost of the Stone Flesh magic item. Ditto Blur.
• Whether more powerful spells should cost more depends to some extent on how fast you expect Wizard ST available for casting to increase. If you expect them to have ST in e.g. their staff then they need to have something to spend it on in fights.

Hi David, everyone.
When I rewrote the magic item list, I made all items non-self powering for consistency. Many items became cheaper, but the flesh spell items became non-self powering at no reduction of cost.

Getting magic armor is so powerful that I wanted it to be expensive.

Warm regards, Rick.