Experience Points

[David Bofinger]

Canonical TFT assigns XPs to individual characters based on what they achieve. Assuming that we want:

1. All characters who are similarly engaged to progress at similar rates
2. Characters to be viable in a range of roles (melee, archer, wizard, scout, skill monkey, etc.)

Then we need each kind of character to generate XPs at a similar rate.

By category:

• Fighters are OK, they generate XP by hurting people. Wizards are much the same with a bonus for casting spells in combat.
• The scouts are relying on a reasonable number of IQ rolls to spot things. The thieves are relying on a reasonable number of rolls to remove traps and whatever. Both these character types are heavily dependent on the awards for rolls that Steve is considering deleting.
• The skill monkeys with tactics, physicker, etc. are in trouble because they don't get XP awards for that role, and they won't be as good at fighting as the specialists.

I would be perfectly happy just awarding points per session or objective or whatever. But if Steve is retaining the current system then he needs to keep the awards for non-combat activities, for the sake of non-combat characters.

As for passing the roll being reward enough, the same argument applies to victory in combat.

[Axly Suregrip]

Originally Posted by David Bofinger

[*]The skill monkeys with tactics, physicker, etc. are in trouble because they don't get XP awards for that role, and they won't be as good at fighting as the specialists.[/LIST]
I would be perfectly happy just awarding points per session or objective or whatever. But if Steve is retaining the current system then he needs to keep the awards for non-combat activities, for the sake of non-combat characters.

David nails it. The XP system slows down the fun of combat with record keeping and yet punishes those whose role is support. For example, the tank that manages to keep your wizard alive by block the damage instead of dealing damage. Since the team wins by fighting as a team, I just sum up the available XP (ST+DX of all fallen foes) at the end and evenly distribute it to all participants. Bonuses for acting in character, etc, to be added/removed from that base value.

[zot]

Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip

David nails it. The XP system slows down the fun of combat with record keeping and yet punishes those whose role is support. For example, the tank that manages to keep your wizard alive by block the damage instead of dealing damage. Since the team wins by fighting as a team, I just sum up the available XP (ST+DX of all fallen foes) at the end and evenly distribute it to all participants. Bonuses for acting in character, etc, to be added/removed from that base value.

David's post was very early in the thread, before Steve posted his new XP rules, but the new rules do line up with the sentiment: players get XP per-session and not based on the sort of accounting in original TFT.

[larsdangly]

I agree that the balance of EXP from combat vs. non combat actions should be shifted, both because the 'accounting' involved in combat experience is too fiddly, and because the risk/reward balance is not great. I don't think it is really possible to progress much if your only source of stat advances is EXP from combat. Earning ~30 points for fighting a well matched foe doesn't go far; each such combat forces you to face a pretty substantial chance of death!

On the other hand, I am a firm believer that the game is more fun if you earn EXP reward for tangible things. I always liked the standard rules that you get rewards for making die rolls and time spent in play. If there were a reward for each standard 3d roll made during play, and you got more for time spent at table (say, 10 per hour), that would go a long way.

[zot]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

If there were a reward for each standard 3d roll made during play, and you got more for time spent at table (say, 10 per hour), that would go a long way.

My problem with that kind of reward system is that we would always forget things like that and then remember at some point and go back to figure out how many we rolls we forgot to record exp for. It really breaks up the flow of play. Also, if you're always "monitoring" for experience, it can take you out of focusing on the play at hand.

[tbeard1999]

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

Problems with attribute bloat will not be solved by changes in the XP award rules, because the game master is the ultimate source of XP. Attribute bloat is a consequence of the way we let points be spent, which is different.

Agreed. And I'm not aware of ANY RPG that doesn't break down when characters get sufficiently powerful.

But there are sources of XP that I think may be unnecessary bookkeeping and/or rewards for die rolls rather than play.

- XP for making any roll on 4 or more dice - Meh. It's not evil, but 30+ years down the pike, I'm not sure what it adds. The successful roll, and its results, are a reward in themselves.

- XP for good job rolls - I'm pretty sure now that I just want to reward those with money.

Agreed on both counts. Personally, I'd come up with some kind of EP total for each monster and be done with it. My guess is that few game masters actually use the official ep systems in their RPGs of choice, so I don't know how much energy I'd spend on getting a perfect EP equation.

[Terquem]

Way, way back, when I was 15 or so, I started introducing an XP reward system in my "other" role playing game

Player's had to list three things that their character wanted, or needed, to do in the next game month - and only if they managed to get their character to meet those goals did I reward them with extra XPs (outside the "kill the monster take it's loot" reward)

When ITL came along, my players and I really got on board with having our characters (yes I always ran a character in the adventure, even as the GM) have Jobs in the game world. I translated this old rule of mine into the new campaign we started. Each player wrote "things to do" for each of their characters (back then the small group I played with were the kinds of players who all wanted to have multiple characters going at the same time) and when a "to do" list item got checked off, bonus XPs were awarded.

[pyratejohn]

Regarding experience overall, I tend to reward "good roleplaying" first and foremost. If someone did something particularly clever I'll certainly reward that. If someone made the session particularly fun or memorable, I'll reward that too.

Adventure milestones are also places where I had out rewards.

I haven't run TFT as a continuing rpg in ages, however, so I'd need to think about how I'd implement those ideas.

Fwiw, I'm just coming off of a year+ of playtesting/running Star Trek Adventures. It's a wonderful system, very fast and it captures the feel of Trek, but my players and I find the experience system to be less than rewarding. So, while we had great fun with the system, there was always a bit of "That's it, all I get is this a stinkin' t-shirt" at the end of every mission.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

Problems with attribute bloat will not be solved by changes in the XP award rules, because the game master is the ultimate source of XP. Attribute bloat is a consequence of the way we let points be spent, which is different.

Fundamentally, yes - the only way to represent very-experienced/powerful characters in TFT was with high attributes (and access to strong talents/spells, but those were determined by IQ).

It would technically be possible to stop bloat by making the experience system extremely steep so practically no one would ever become a very-high-point character, but that would change the established range of power levels, and wizards in particular are expected to get up to IQ 20 or more, so other rules would need to change to allow powerful wizards and avoid attribute bloat.

I'd add though that there is also an issue with EP awards in ITL in that they don't scale for difficulty. For example, two starting foes or wolves with ST + DX = 24 each are not very difficult foes for say a 38+ point character, but they are worth as much EP as one opponent with ST + DX = 48, i.e. a 56+ point character... In other words, there should be a very strong effect for relative difficulty, where there is none. We came up with a nice system we liked for accounting for this, but it's somewhat crunchy and can be done with GM discretion too. Guidelines for proper EP awards that can make sense to novice GMs
(if done really well) would seem like the ideal approach, to me.

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

But there are sources of XP that I think may be unnecessary bookkeeping and/or rewards for die rolls rather than play.

- XP for making any roll on 4 or more dice - Meh. It's not evil, but 30+ years down the pike, I'm not sure what it adds. The successful roll, and its results, are a reward in themselves.

Whether it's bookkeeping or fun depends on the players' tastes, but there's a challenge for when it's appropriate to give the award or not. Did the circumstances justify an EP award or not? And was it actually a really easy roll because the character has high attribute numbers?

Again, the ideal thing might be a really-well considered and well-written set of guidelines on when to award how much EP, or not, taking into account both the circumstances and the relative difficulty.

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

- XP for good job rolls - I'm pretty sure now that I just want to reward those with money.

Sounds fine. We gravitated towards playing out and remarkable event during job downtime, anyway, with whatever outcome playing it out had. That seemed much more satisfying and interesting and avoided issues.

Just as long as it's not giving huge EP to experienced people, it's good.

If you do give EP for job rolls, have someone (several of us could do it) run statistics and let you know how experienced (or likely to be dead at what age) people doing nothing but working would be using the table. I'd be happy enough with "the average 40-year-old farmer who just farmed all his life will still be a 30-point character for adventuring purposes - no EP from jobs".

Though if someone starts a 32-point fighter or wizard and does a fighting or wizardly job for 20 years, I'd expect them to be more like 36 pointts at the end of an uneventful career... so about +1 attribute per 5-10 years sounds about right, and unlikely to be complained about as an exploit...

[Steve Jackson]

All right. Apologies for the long post, but this is the result of a lot of back and forth - sort of a new Grand Unified Field Theory of character development. I hope it's fairly clear what is meant as rules and what as side comments to you, the forum.

If this flies, no more computing how much each individual spider was worth in XP, and to whom, ever again.

Experience Points
GMs can reward their players in two ways. The first is in-game rewards – gold, magic items, reputation. The second way is through experience points, which allow characters themselves to improve.
The party as a group should get an XP reward at the end of each play session. Rewards might come during play, as well – for instance:
- For an outstanding example of cooperation.
- For working as a group to solve a puzzle.
- For finding an unexpected solution to an in-game situation.

The GM may also award XP to individuals during play, when a player does something that improves the game. For instance:
- For making everyone in the party gasp, exclaim, or laugh – provided it was by an in-character action.
- For achieving some important part of the objective – striking down the orc leader, convincing the dwarf-lord to show you a map, distracting the dragon for that crucial minute.
- For saving the day (or the party) through some in-character action.

Players keep track of their own XP and spend them as described below.

XP should not be mechanically granted. It’s a GM decision, and it’s first and always for good roleplaying.

A rate of 25 to 100 experience points per player per session will be appropriate for most campaigns, but this is a GM decision. That rate will allow most characters to improve themselves after every session or so at the beginning of the campaign. Later, as the campaign itself becomes an important reward, the character advancement should slow down. Keep in mind that only the GM can prevent “attribute bloat,” in which all the characters get such high scores that nothing is a challenge any longer.

Spending Experience Points
XP are normally spent at the end of the expedition, when the characters are safe at home and at least mostly healed. The GM may allow exceptions as he sees fit.
Experience points can be spent in three ways:
• To improve your basic stats: ST, DX, or IQ. This will improve all talents and saving rolls associated with that stat, but it’s expensive.
• To learn new spells and talents. This is the cheapest way to improve your abilities.
• To improve your staff’s Mana stat, if you are a wizard. This lets you cast more spells.

Improving Basic Stats
You may use experience points to buy a total of 8 additional attribute points. These may all go into one stat, or they can be divided up. After the eighth additional attribute point (which gets humans to a total of 40), attributes may only be increased by magic, such as a Wish.
The cost to improve a basic stat depends on the level you are buying. High levels are expensive. Super-high stats will end up being very costly, making geniuses, Olympic athletes, and Merlin rare. The highest “normal” stat would thus be 24 – the character starts with 16 in the chosen stat and miraculously survives long enough to add all his optional points to that same stat.

New stat XP cost
8 or less – 100 XP
9 – 200
10 – 300
11 – 400
12 – 500
13 – 600
14 – 700
15 – 900
16 – 1,100
17 – 1,500
18 – 2,000
plus a further 500 for each increase.

Learning New Spells and Talents
Each new spell or talent learned costs 100 XP – or 200 for talents marked (2) in the listing, or 300 for those marked (3). It does not matter how many spells or talents you already know.
However, you may not learn a spell or talent unless you meet the minimum IQ requirement, as well as any prerequisites (such as other talents) shown in the listing.
When you add a new spell or talent, you may use it immediately. It is assumed that you were practicing or studying during the time you were earning the experience points.
As when the character was created, spells cost triple for a non-wizard, and talents cost double for a wizard.

Mana and the Wizard’s Staff
(Some of this goes elsewhere, notably under STAFF in the section on wizardry.)
Mana is a stat, not of the wizard, but of the wizard’s staff. When a wizard first creates a staff, it has 0 mana. By spending 100 XP, the wizard may add 1 to the mana of the staff, up to a limit of the wizard’s current IQ score. Each point of mana can be spent like a point of ST to power spells.
Once spent, the mana must be replaced. To “recharge” his staff, the wizard must either spend 5 ST points, or spend a half-day in contemplation, for each ST point replaced. (An exploit is clearly possible here using the Drain ST spell and a whole lot of prisoners. I don’t see it coming up enough in play to be a problem, and it encourages evil rulers to keep their prisoners alive so their evil wizards can farm ST. Maybe good rulers would do it too, at least as part of some punishments.)
If a staff is lost or destroyed, the wizard’s next one will have the same mana stat. The XP was spent, not to enhance a stick of wood, but to improve the wizard’s understanding of the spell.
A wizard may have only one staff at a time. If he loses his staff, the act of making another will disempower the old staff.
No one but the creating wizard himself may draw ST from a staff.
The “Staff of Power” spell doubles the mana that a staff can hold.

Forgetting
There is no longer a need to forget abilities, so all that stuff gets removed. And good riddance.