Code of Honor (Honesty), point value?

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Causing property damage to save human lives is not illegal. The law allows for such things. Nor for that matter is intervening to stop a felony in progress.

Depends on where and when.

When Superman was originally written his activities were closer to legal than they would be now - if for no other reason we have more civil rights law now.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Depends on where and when.

When Superman was originally written his activities were closer to legal than they would be now - if for no other reason we have more civil rights law now.

<shrug> If there are "civil rights laws" that impact on what Superman usually does these days, I'm unaware of them. Superman (and by that I mean mainstream comic book Superman) is not a cop or government agent. He doesn't extract confessions, doesn't hospitalize criminals, doesn't break into private residences or even businesses except when someone is about to die, doesn't provide evidence to the authorities except incidentally, and doesn't interfere with people voting. The truth is under the law you can get away with a hell of a lot if people will die if you don't act.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Sorenant

How much points should the following Code of Honor be worth? It's a mix of softened/limited Truthfulness, Honesty and a few different vows. I eyeball between -5 to -10, more likely the former than the other.
Code of Honor (Honesty): Respect the law, local customs and honorable people. Don't steal or cause material harm to innocents. Keep your word and avoid lies. Do not ignore pleas for sincere pleas for help.

I'd place it at -15, mostly because of that responding to sincere pleas. That has a lot of potential to get you into trouble. For the part that just causes you to behave like a civilized person I'd go with -5.

Uninmportant Context: After reading a few threads about the Honesty disadvantage, I realized I've underestimate how crippling it is.

There's actually quite a lot of disagreement about that - I always point out that the text itself is contradictory - and SJG has consistently failed to clarify it. It does continue to get used in official products as a suggested trait in templates where the more pathological form would utterly cripple the concept of the template though, so I think it's actually rather clear the authorial intent isn't supposed to be nearly as extreme as some people insist it is.

I think most of the extreme interpretations require you to read the first paragraph and stop. It appears much less crippling if you read the rest of it, never mind think about the implications of it needing to be broadly acceptable enough to earn a reaction bonus even in places the laws aren't very popular.

[Railstar]

Originally Posted by Sorenant

How much points should the following Code of Honor be worth? It's a mix of softened/limited Truthfulness, Honesty and a few different vows. I eyeball between -5 to -10, more likely the former than the other.
Code of Honor (Honesty): Respect the law, local customs and honorable people. Don't steal or cause material harm to innocents. Keep your word and avoid lies. Do not ignore pleas for sincere pleas for help.

Looking at the components.

The first half seems like Honesty, but flexible to favour the spirit of Honesty rather than the letter. I'd consider that a -50% limitation for being able to break unjust laws (because those are the main ones most characters would want to break). So Code of Honour: Personal [-5] would cover it.

Keep your word and avoid lies would be Truthfulness... but it runs into the problem that "avoid" has the subtext of not forbidding lies completely. If you can lie if you really need to without difficulty, I'd call it just a Quirk.

Do not ignore sincere pleas for help would be either Charitable [-15] or Vow: Never Refuse A Request For Aid [-15]... This is the big one, and would depend massively on how far you would enforce such a thing. If it's merely "do not ignore" and can be satisfied with just an apology and an explanation to the person asking then it's only a quirk.

Overall, I would go for Code of Honour: Personal [-5] to reflect the Honesty side of things. Quirk-level Truthfulness [-1] & Responsive (Quirk-level Charitable) [-1].

Anything that's a tendency rather than a hard limit I treat as quirk-level.

[tanksoldier]

Honesty reflects how YOU behave and who you associate with.

It doesn't require you to rebel against a government or risk your life in protests. It doesn't require that you become lawless in lawless areas.

If it is lawful somewhere to kill a slave out of hand, perhaps only compensating the owner, YOU don't run around killing slaves for fun because it's "legal".

If you encountered someone about to kill a slave legally you might offer to buy the slave or trade for the slave... but you probably wouldn't murder the slave owner to prevent it.

If a slave owner is beating his slave, you don't interfere because it's legal... but if you should come into ownership of slaves somehow you wouldn't likely beat them and would free them as soon as legally possible.

You don't necessarily have to lead a slave rebellion... and if you are FROM a slave holding country where these things are common you might see no problem with any of them at all. It's about what YOU are used to the law and morality being.

If you grew up in Melniboné you're going to have a different take on Honesty than an Amish.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by tanksoldier

Honesty reflects how YOU behave and who you associate with.

It doesn't require you to rebel against a government or risk your life in protests.

If it is lawful somewhere to kill a slave out of hand, perhaps only compensating the owner, YOU don't run around killing slaves for fun because it's "legal".

You don't necessarily have to lead a slave rebellion.

But if your code does not allow slavery, then you can't promote it even where it is legal.
You seem to be assuming additional disadvantages not stated. Like how lack of empathy does not equal sadism. It merely means you don't care about others' suffering.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

But if your code does not allow slavery, then you can't promote it even where it is legal.
You seem to be assuming additional disadvantages not stated. Like how lack of empathy does not equal sadism. It merely means you don't care about others' suffering.

The iconic examples would be turning over escaped slaves to slave-catchers or Jews to the Nazis. These are legal representatives of the state, duly empowered to carry out their duties in accordance with the current law of the land. Honest people may or may not care about the morality, but they need a SC roll to avoid turning any refugees over.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Icelander

The iconic examples would be turning over escaped slaves to slave-catchers or Jews to the Nazis. These are legal representatives of the state, duly empowered to carry out their duties in accordance with the current law of the land. Honest people may or may not care about the morality, but they need a SC roll to avoid turning any refugees over.

Only if their Honesty is connected to the local laws. I initially assumed that's what that disadvantage meant, but according to authors it isn't.
Your set of rules is what matters, not those of the local society unless that is defined as your set.

[tanksoldier]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

But if your code does not allow slavery, then you can't promote it even where it is legal.

Then that wouldn't be "Honesty" as used in GURPS. To be honest, "Honesty" should have probably been named "Lawfulness".

I'm talking about the OP's incorrect understanding of the Honesty disadvantage, not his code of honor with the same name.

[DocRailgun]

Isn't this pretty much the behavior expected of a normal, well-adjusted person (human or otherwise) or at least of a "civilized" person?
I "respect the law" in real life but I've driven over the speed limit before, I've jaywalked, and I've ignored street lights/stop signs ehen the road is too icy to safely stop.

I don't steal or cause harm to innocents and I wouldn't ingore pleas for help if I was able to, even to the point of putting myself in danger... and I expect that other people are going to act this way too. People who don't are sociopaths or criminals.

A Disadvantage has to make life difficult or it's just a quirk. At best this is a zero point campaign feature. If you want it to cost something I would want it to be like the PC has an obsessive need to find out what the local laws are and follow them to the letter, never try to barter (because that would be cheating and causing harm to others) and offer to help those in need with all resources at tbe PC's disposal, no matter how terrible the supplicant. ("I know he massacred thousands of viegins and bathed in their blood but I had to help him escape to that safe haven because he begged me sincerely").

Originally Posted by Sorenant

How much points should the following Code of Honor be worth? It's a mix of softened/limited Truthfulness, Honesty and a few different vows. I eyeball between -5 to -10, more likely the former than the other.
Code of Honor (Honesty): Respect the law, local customs and honorable people. Don't steal or cause material harm to innocents. Keep your word and avoid lies. Do not ignore pleas for sincere pleas for help.

Uninmportant Context: After reading a few threads about the Honesty disadvantage, I realized I've underestimate how crippling it is. I thought it would be an advantage for someone who's law-abiding but not blindingly so. No theft, no speeding, no illegal drugs and so on, but apparently someone with disadvantage would also have no trouble with any acts against human rights if it were committed by the state (say Pol Pot's open massacre of the religious). With this in mind I decided to use some Code of Honor to represent what I thought Honesty did. I consider the above writing a rough "draft" and I would be happy for any suggestion to improve it.