Reviewer gives GURPS Space substance 3 out of 5

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by Anthony

I would defy you to run a game modeled after BSG, Star Trek, or Star Wars using the ship design system in Space 3e or Space 2e (sure, you can design ships. They won't much resemble the ones seen in those settings).

I don't know about that. GURPS Prime Directive managed to do a dandy job of modeling Trek ships using only a slightly modified set of the rules from GURPS Space 3e (the major modification necessary was in the Shields, which would have been necessary even if they had designed a completely new Vehicles system using Vehicles 2e, since the Shield rules in GURPS 3e were pretty inflexible).

[KDLadage]

Originally Posted by Almafeta

Combining several replies into one post for brevity, and trying not to get heated (I rewrote this post a few times over... ^^;):

I will address all of these points in kind...

Originally Posted by Kromm

It's rather unfair to use one reviewer's inability to grasp the difference between a catalog and a genre book as a basis for the assumption that SJ Games is too stupid to tell the difference between a genre book and a catalog. Of course Bestiary will be a catalog.

Originally Posted by Almafeta

It is not enough to say how to create a PC. It is not enough to create a static setting. If the GM cannot use the book to actually run the game, with the sorts of things integral to the genre being left to other books (many of which still don't exist yet), there is no reason to play GURPS instead of any other game. Calling part of the content necessary to run a game a "catalog," and stating that all "catalog" content is verboten even when integral to the genre in question, is not an excuse.

Space 3e was excellent. Space 4e was excellent if absolutely nothing you needed help with as a GM could be measured in game terms. Although sanitizing a genre book of all rules that support that genre might be an excellent organization scheme in an ideal situation where you have access to all GURPS books printed (and those that are just in playtest), it's bad for the rest of us.

Publishing books that are not up to the task of running games in Genre X when you market it as being able to do that is bad business. (Of course, calling your customers 'stupid' and 'inable to grasp' your schema isn't good business, either...)

OK... one thing at a time:

• You state: If the GM cannot use the book to actually run the game, with the sorts of things integral to the genre being left to other books (many of which still don't exist yet), there is no reason to play GURPS instead of any other game and Space 4e was excellent if absolutely nothing you needed help with as a GM could be measured in game terms. In all honesty, I have no idea what you are trying to say. I find that GURPS Space has a lot -- if not all -- of the things needed to run most space-born campaigns. Sure, I do not have a tactical starship combat system, or even rules on how to design starships. But this is much like saying that, without vehicles, I cannot run a modern setting at all -- and that would be patently not true.
  
• You state: Calling part of the content necessary to run a game a "catalog," and stating that all "catalog" content is verboten even when integral to the genre in question, is not an excuse.In GURPS, I have ran many a space campaign and never needed anything like the material that people are screaming for right now. In fact, I never needed most of the material that is currently in GURPS Space, either. But let me say, here and now, and for the last time -- the material in GURPS Space is, in my humble opinion, exactly the sort of book I wish I had back when I was running most of those games, as it would have provided a level of guidance and campaign design information that would have made the design process much, much easier.
  
• You state: Publishing books that are not up to the task of running games in Genre X when you market it as being able to do that is bad business. Which books would that be? Bucasue GURPS Space is certainly up to that task.
  
• You state: Of course, calling your customers 'stupid' and 'inable to grasp' your schema isn't good business, either... Go back and re-read the posts. Kromm stated that the reviewer's inability to grasp resulted in his calling Steve Jackson Games stupid. He never called the reviewer stupid. Not once.

Originally Posted by KDLadage

The book covers everything that a Game Master wanting to design a Space campaign would need and would need to consider during the design process. This, in my opinion, makes it a nearly perfect Genre Book. The fact that the Genre Book is not also a Catalog and a Rulebook is not a flaw.

Yes, I agree. It is increadible that they managed to avoid the temptation of putting their peaches and their grapes into the apple cart. Good job, SJG.

Originally Posted by Almafeta

"Catalog" and "rulebook" should not be treated as 'dirty words' in your post above, especially when they are integral content that should not have been omitted from a complete and usable treatment of the genre in question.

And to continue your food metaphor, I find it hard to believe that SJG is selling cookies that have been made with only baking powder.

OK... I dod not use Catalog and Rulebook as dirty words. In fact, I have no idea what you are trying to say there, either. These things are not integral in my opinion. Not at all.

And with the food metaphor -- let me say this: GURPS Space is not a tray full of cookies (a catalog); it is not a book of cookie recipies (a toolkit). GURPS Space is an overview of the history of cookies and how the various types of cookies relate to one another and to other baked goods (a genre book).

Originally Posted by Almafeta

And I dare anyone to use the three starship 'designs' in 4e's Basic Set as the only ships available in a campaign.

Why?

Originally Posted by Almafeta

Games modeled after Battlestar Galactica, Star Trek, or Star Wars are right out.

I whole-heartedly disagree.

Battlestar Galactica -- (I assume you mean the new series) 90% of the series (thus far) has been dealing with humanocentric, person-to-person, political, and social storytelling. The starships themselves are background, and the space-combats have been primarilly plot devices. The need to deal with ship-to-ship specifics is not there at all.

Star Trek -- the ships are nothing but plot devices in Star Trek. Do you know how you can tell? The capabilities and limitations of the ships change each episode to fit the needs of the plot being told. If you need rules to cover "this ship can do whatever is needed to move the plot forward" then I am not sure what set of rules you are looking for.

Star Wars -- again -- the ships in this setting are plot devices. The battles are large, epic, and completely impersonal. The only exception? The original Star Wars trench run. And this entire sequence was there to accomplish two things: to show that the Death Star was big, nasty, and to be feared; and to teach Luke a lesson in trusting his instincts instead of mechanized targetting devices.

[Not another shrubbery]

Just the most recent example, that happened to catch my eye, but... I wish I could write long, coherent posts like that <sincere>. After a few lines, I start to ramble :/

We now return you to the regularly scheduled (and increasingly overheated) discussion.

Originally Posted by Anthony

I would defy you to run a game modeled after BSG, Star Trek, or Star Wars using the ship design system in Space 3e or Space 2e (sure, you can design ships. They won't much resemble the ones seen in those settings).

I think that this is an excellent point that bears repeating. Ships in space campaigns vary very widely. A design system that covers such a broad range deserves its own book (or PDF). That way the game system can give enough page count to the design system to let you do giant transforming mecha capital ships, hard science solar sail ships, and everything in between.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by KDLadage

You state: Of course, calling your customers 'stupid' and 'inable to grasp' your schema isn't good business, either... Go back and re-read the posts. Kromm stated that the reviewer's inability to grasp resulted in his calling Steve Jackson Games stupid. He never called the reviewer stupid. Not once.

This is true. However, reading what was actually written and interpreting it as something else is what happens when discussions get overheated.

[dravenloft]

Originally Posted by Almafeta

It is not enough to say how to create a PC. It is not enough to create a static setting. If the GM cannot use the book to actually run the game, with the sorts of things integral to the genre being left to other books (many of which still don't exist yet), there is no reason to play GURPS instead of any other game. Calling part of the content necessary to run a game a "catalog," and stating that all "catalog" content is verboten even when integral to the genre in question, is not an excuse.

Depends on perspective really. I mean, I admit that I'd love to see some more templates for sentient races, and I'd enjoy a few more sample vehicles. The fact that I haven't got them isn't a bother though. Honestly, 4e's greatest strength, and what sells it to me over 3e (which I do have and have played and frankly was getting disenchanted with GURPS from until I discovered 4e) is that Basic really IS GURPS. I've made felinoids, I've made elves, I've made dwarves, a Shaolin monk straight out of the Kung-fu series, ninja, Klingons, Vulcans, a teenaged super genius with a universe hopping starship, a Jedi wolf, a small 10wk old kitten, a golden retriever puppy, and a Mech inspired by the Voltron lions all with no ACTUAL help from the books publsihed outside of Basic Set. Yes, I have all of them but Mysteries and Banestorm (sadly), and yes they DO get used. They get used first and foremost as GMing tools and to a lesser extent to remind me of a few things I didn't think of, like Powers' little modifier to Sharp Claws to make them retractable, and in Fantasy some archery techniques I would have never thought of.

Granted, I don't tend to play chars, or run campaigns where vehicles need stats beyond a deck plan, and in some rare cases, a list of weapons and shields. Though the new short and sweet vehicle desc system seems easy enough that I only need the examples I have to extrapolate out into other things if need be, and if I need to make something more detailed, I build it as a character so that I don't have to deal with any new combat rules.

Publishing books that are not up to the task of running games in Genre X when you market it as being able to do that is bad business.

In what sense are you meaning that? I mean let's take a look:
Item 1

Originally Posted by back of Space 4e

It's the ultimae toolkit for building strange new worlds and alien civilizations. GURPS Space puts campaign-planning advice and space science at your fingertips, so you can create a setting that is plausible and fun!

Well, it's got a planet and star system design system complete with info on giving the general idea of what the critters on it are. And then it DOES say it assumes you have Basic Set or Lite which would give you the needed tools to create templates for the nifty little buggers that'll live there.

Item 2 I'll just summarize as being a list of the things you can do with the book. Highlights include that it has PC templates. Not races, just spacer templates, which is right and proper because of the infinite variety of races you could come up with, the professions logically would get first dibs on being printed. It mentions that it does have an alien design chapter in there. So, while it doens't have any ugly bug-eyed races actually made, you have a "toolkit" as it says to build your own. Ultimately just a bullet list better detailing the preceeding paragraph.

item 3

Originally Posted by last part of back of 4e Space before the credits

GURPS Space requires the GURPS Basic Set, Fourth Edition. The information and advice on technology, worldbuilding and alien design can be used as a resource for any space-based game.

Space based. Not per se Sci-fi, or space opera, or just modern day TL 8 on Adronica 7 instead of poor ol' Terra. It doesn't claim to be a lot of tech, and ships and such. It's advice and tools for populating the stars with somewhere to be and someone to meet.

I'm not saying that alien race templates and some spaceships wouldn't have been nice. I'll agree there. Though I'll also say that considering what's promised on the back, that their absence is no worry of mine. They didn't promise it, so I didn't expect it.

"Catalog" and "rulebook" should not be treated as 'dirty words' in your post above, especially when they are integral content that should not have been omitted from a complete and usable treatment of the genre in question.

I've played in space games that never, ever needed those items. I've played others that needed so limited a supply of them that any generic source or just a tiny descriptor was enough to cover something that worked. I've read some very good, and very well respected sci-fi or space centred novels that can say the same.

Well, for my part, just one book: I could (and did!) run GURPS Space with only it and 3e lite, which I printed for free at my local library. Those days are over in 4e, unfortunately. ^^;

Wow. Cool. I never could play the things I wanted with 3e lite. I've never tried with 4e albeit I'm not sure I could RUN with it, I'm making good use of it as a "Here's what this GURPS thing I'm suggesting we play is, and how it works." Although reading it and Fantasy caused me to discover that 4e had made bigger changes than I'd thought, and changes I liked the look of.

And I dare anyone to use the three starship 'designs' in 4e's Basic Set as the only ships available in a campaign. (Games modeled after Battlestar Galactica, Star Trek, or Star Wars are right out.)

Change BsG to Voltron and I've had a GM running that since we only had 4e Basic and Fantasy. Admittedly we started out 3e with that game.... but that doesn't mean much. All we ever used was Basic, C1, Traveller: Starships (which we used for the OUTLINE of a ship and some weapons), and Discworld. We've got UT but I think we only ever acutally used that once.

[Mark Skarr]

It seems to me (and I could be wrong), but the majority of posters in this subject fall into one of two categories:

Category one, is the camp in which I find myself. We saw Space more as a treatise on science fiction in general, and space in specific. We expected a discussion of how science fiction is a genre, and how that genre exists in and amongst itself. We were given what we were looking for: a book that does not tell you how the authors run their science fiction games, but how to create and run our own.

Category two is the camp where the members find themselves expecting a worldbook as opposed to a dissertation of science fiction. They were expecting an explanation of how to make a science fiction campaign, with the author giving them at least examples of equipment and space ships, and perhaps aliens. They are disappointed.

I sympathize with those of you in category two. I do understand your complaints, but, honestly, we’ve known, for a long time, what was going to be in Space. I was quite disappointed with Magic (and I’m still going to get RPK’s address and send him my book, just so he can have one!) but I only complained a bit. It was exactly what it was supposed to be: a skill-based magic system.

I would like to see, and would encourage those of you who are upset to write your own science fiction setting and submitting it for publication. I am not being facetious or confrontational. If I had the time and talent, I have a couple I would love to see turned into free e23 downloads. Show them what you want, and maybe, in the future, you can help them give out what you think we need.

[dravenloft]

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

I sympathize with those of you in category two. I do understand your complaints, but, honestly, we’ve known, for a long time, what was going to be in Space. I was quite disappointed with Magic (and I’m still going to get RPK’s address and send him my book, just so he can have one!) but I only complained a bit. It was exactly what it was supposed to be: a skill-based magic system.

Amen to this one. I'll admit to being a bit sad about Magic, but at least it took me till December to buy a copy so I knew what to expect. What I really like though is that SJG responded so well to it, and is working on getting out another book to make up for the "missing content" (for want of something else to call it) of Magic. Something I applaud them for, it flying in the face of what I've been able to observe of their competition.

I would like to see, and would encourage those of you who are upset to write your own science fiction setting and submitting it for publication. I am not being facetious or confrontational. If I had the time and talent, I have a couple I would love to see turned into free e23 downloads. Show them what you want, and maybe, in the future, you can help them give out what you think we need.

Good point. e23 I think is going to be a blessing in the sense of people getting to see some of the things they've been wanting to see, but it would be insane to spend the money on printing. I doubt e23 could carry such things as GURPS Faerun w/o WotC getting a bit .. well... shall we say unhappy about it, the open call for race books allows there to be enough variety of elves, dwarves and other races that a game set there could be played. Anyone who's been looking for the GURPS equivalent of (Goddess help me I'm going to actually .. oh wait... I don't have to mention them!) uh Complete Book of <race> by TSR (whew almost had to mention the Mongoose ones) will have that soon.

Sadly, I do wish I could write that well, but I can never get past the first page before I've driven myself mad.

[Archangel Beth]

Originally Posted by KDLadage

Then play with the rules from 2e. No, that was not sarcasm. The rules presented in GURPS 3e for starship design and combat were, in my games, useless.

I quite liked those 2e rules, myself -- but yeah, there was a certain amount of, "So, what sort of damage would a dino laser do to a ship if you hang out the airlock and fire?"

On the other hand, that did make those rules a bit self-contained and thus "generic" if you don't get into putting them up against character-portable weapons. (The Vehicles-based modules... crossed over into my personal eye-glaze territory. I was much more comfortable with winging the intersection and using the "Space Combat Simple" construction stuff.)

I cross my fingers that, someday, those rules -- sans the rest of Space 2e -- will show up on e23 so that I can go splurge. (I got Powers, Magic, and a couple of others, recently.)

Then, hey, maybe that could make nearly everyone content enough. Or make me content, and I'm feeling egotistical right now. O;>

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Rev_Pee_Kitty

However, I certainly would want two pages of spaceships and starships in my GURPS Space book.

Like what size? what fuction? what TL? What tech assumtions?

TL9 small tramp trader Hard Science
TL9 small tramp trader Soft Science
TL10 small tramp trader Hard Science
TL10 small tramp trader Soft Science
TL11 small tramp trader Hard Science
TL11 small tramp trader Soft Science
TL12 small tramp trader Hard Science
TL12 small tramp trader Soft Science

And that's just a Trader vessle. Sawp out "small tram trader" with..

-space fighter
-medium-sized trader
-medium warship
-bulk freighter
-carrier/large warship

that's about vechiles 48. and This is ingoring the TL8 Shuttle, and TL7 Rockets, or even the X-prize ship and diferent FTL drive types.

your goung to need much more than 2 pages.