Gurps 4e Space: What´s new?

[Der Wanderer]

Originally Posted by eddie

See here.

That tells me that there is a chapter about alien races but is it more theoretical (e.g. due to a shifted spectra of the sun their skincolour is light blue and glows rather than pink...) or is there a guideline on how to make hit location tables (e.g. Eyes the size of a soccer ball should get -x to hit, to balance this with other races you would have to assign more HP and change the wound multiplier in such or such a way).
Since it is supposed to serve the same purpose as Fantasy I assume that its more an idea collection than anything else, though the TOC does not answer that question...
So I would like to repeat my question and expand it a little bit:
- Is there a way to generate a Hit location table for aliens that cannot be assigned one of the standart HLTs? E.g. a giantic space snail with a very vulnerable exo-lung (and that is not even exotic, some snails actually have an exo-lung)
- Is there a guideline on how to create aliens with a more exotic physiology (e.g. what is the advantage that lets me turn my head 360°? Is it just a perk?), what if my mouth is not in my head but my ellbow etc....
- How do you handle different metabolisms in relation to food/poisons/diseases?

[jlb7289]

Originally Posted by zorg

Definitely not, since Space contains no gadgets at all. That's what UltraTech is for, after all.

And the RPG.net review was not entirely, let me say, objective.

Ummm, that doesn't mean many of his points were not valid. I have been a fan of Gurps from the beginning, I shudder to think of all the Gurps books I own, and I am extremely disappointed with Gurps Space 4e.

The notion that one should not have *some* gadgets in Space 4e and that everyone ought to wait for UT is flawed, I don't understand why they couldn't provide some albeit incomplete coverage of the kinds of technology that will be useful for running a campaign (which I imagine is what the book is supposed to help with), for example (to say nothing of spaceship design and combat, but I've noted that elsewhere on this forum).

The multiplication of gadgets, cyberpunk stuff in one book AND in other books, ordinary technology here and there, is pretty unavoidable with worldbooks and not something to fear, what I find more important is the kind of comprehensiveness in a worldbook that makes it maximally useful for running a campaign. There can be gaps, that's unavoidable, but the ones in Space 4e are enormous, and it's a shame. And...wow, what a bill for a book with big gaps! I paid it, but I sure didn't like it, though I was pretty happy with the the Basic Gurps set and even Interstellar Wars.

JLB

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by jlb7289

The notion that one should not have *some* gadgets in Space 4e and that everyone ought to wait for UT is flawed

Please bear in mind that on our original schedule, Ultra-Tech was to have been one of the earliest 4e books -- released long before Space -- but circumstances conspired to hold it up until long after Space. This was unfortunate, but we didn't feel it would be wise to (1) hold up Space until Ultra-Tech was done, or (2) send Space back to the writers and ask them to rewrite it with gadgets because Ultra-Tech was running late. The way we did things, we got one book out in a timely fashion. Either alternative would have meant no books out in a timely fashion. It's unfortunate that our decision disappointed tech-head players . . . but the alternatives would have meant disappointing everyone.

Originally Posted by jlb7289

(to say nothing of spaceship design and combat, but I've noted that elsewhere on this forum).

Like all vehicle-design and combat rules, this is specialized material for a particular niche market. We do plan to support it, but in a separate product. We've seen no evidence whatsoever that the average gamer likes to design vehicles and play out wargame-style combats with them, so we don't think that such content is a good use of space in a book aimed at the broader market. My apologies if you're one of those who likes such things, but we do have to consider everyone and we're not quite at the tech level where we can have split runs with content tuned to several special-interest groups.

[RelFexive]

I liked it. And I know I'm going to love UT even more :)

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by jlb7289

The notion that one should not have *some* gadgets in Space 4e and that everyone ought to wait for UT is flawed, I don't understand why they couldn't provide some albeit incomplete coverage of the kinds of technology that will be useful for running a campaign (which I imagine is what the book is supposed to help with), for example (to say nothing of spaceship design and combat, but I've noted that elsewhere on this forum).

I think this highlights exactly where the cognitive disconnect is coming from. The book is not designed for the "low level" running of a Space game. From everything I've seen in the playtest, it's targeted at a higher design level. It seems to be mostly metacontent - content describing content and giving you an overview of enough science and literary theory to shape the content you develop.

[RelFexive]

Exactly. It's a genre book.

[damon]

Originally Posted by RelFexive

Exactly. It's a genre book.

it is my opinion that the term 'genre book' is completely inadequate in implying what it is meant to represent.

laser pistols are as much part of the science fiction genre compared to accurately modeled solar systems. and in many cases moreso when compared to aliens.

i don't think there is anything in the term 'genre book' that implies it is meant for designing universes rather than running games in them...

edit: this is not meant to criticze the book or anything, (i don't have it and haven't quite decided from what i've heard whether i approve of it) but saying "well duh it's a genre book, why would it have what you feel you need to run a game in your preferred genre?" will not make sense to a lot of people. i know what you mean.. but this is where people are getting huffy.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by damon

it is my opinion that the term 'genre book' is completely inadequate in implying what it is meant to represent.

laser pistols are as much part of the science fiction genre compared to accurately modeled solar systems. and in many cases moreso when compared to aliens.

A genre is a literary category -- a pigeonhole. It is defined by conventions and the definition is strengthened by the recurrence of tropes. Both of these things are ultimately dramatic devices, and genre books attempt to get at the reason why those devices exist and what purpose they play in spinning tales. Obsessing on the technical details of those devices within their respective settings isn't the goal. Genre books treat meta-level matters; the technical details of specific in-story events and items are what rulebooks and catalogs exist to address.

For instance, when you study drama with an eye to learning how to write plays, you might use Romeo and Juliet as an example. However, you don't worry about how long the swords were in Verona at the time, how strong the average Veronese was, or how fast horses can get characters to/from various outlying areas. All of those things might be valid topical matter for a book on historical Verona . . . but if you're writing a play, you're more interested in scene-setting, plots, character motivations, and how to engage the audience. The idea of a genre book is the same: How does one create a setting? What plots work? What PCs work? How can the GM get the players into the game?

Some GMs and players feel that they know all of this already and don't require such advice. They're free to pass over genre books as "worthless." The cause of all the friction about Space and its recent review was that some people who felt this way were faulting SJ Games for releasing a genre book that wasn't also a catalog and rulebook. While SJ Games felt that that the book's goals were clear, these individuals didn't -- a divide caused in part by previous books titled Space being hybrid catalog-genre book-rulebooks, in part by the fact that not every gamer realizes that there are gamers who need advice on scene-setting, plots, character motivations, and engaging the players, and in part by GURPS having a reputation for being "crunchy" rather than story-oriented.

[Flyndaran]

Well, to lend a voice to those pleased with Space...

I LOVE the book. It delves deepest into the aspects that I find the most appealing and gurps-ian. Leaving the campaign specific tech. out tickled me pink. Much of that stuff will be sufficiently rubbery and by gm fiat anyway, so why bother half-assing it with numerous pages that won't apply to "my" game?

IMO of course.

[safisher]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Some GMs and players feel that they know all of this already and don't require such advice. They're free to pass over genre books as "worthless." The cause of all the friction about Space and its recent review was that some people who felt this way were faulting SJ Games for releasing a genre book that wasn't also a catalog and rulebook. While SJ Games felt that that the book's goals were clear, these individuals didn't -- a divide caused in part by previous books titled Space being hybrid catalog-genre book-rulebooks, in part by the fact that not every gamer realizes that there are gamers who need advice on scene-setting, plots, character motivations, and engaging the players, and in part by GURPS having a reputation for being "crunchy" rather than story-oriented.

A someone that owns just about everything printed for GURPS, I'll give my opinion on the matter. This is not to meant to condemn, or harass anyone at SJG, but just to explain why I -- and perhaps others here -- are a little unhappy with the new version of Space.

The 4e version is a great setting reference -- but it's not what I wanted . I can't fault the authors or SJGames for its execution, but I personally wanted a different product. I like GURPS Fantasy (4e) just fine because it is full of crunch (magic, templates, etc.); Space lacks virtually any crunch at all.

See, I can read ANY book and convert its social setting and customs to GURPS. I can snag other game systems' setting material and convert it to GURPS with equal ease. But, as a player and GM, I have the most problem when it comes to rules-related conversions. What is a "powergun," ala Hammer's Slammers, in GURPS terms? How do you build an X-Wing in GURPS Vehicles? So, yes, I want crunchy. I think Powers and Dragons are books that have made it easy for me to embrace the many changes of 4e. They are nearly perfect examples of 4e books written with my preferences in mind.

But, Space missed the mark. Again, not because what is in there is all bad (some it is very good, but I'll get to the bad in a minute), but because of what it isn't in there.

With the long history of GURPS Space prior to 4e, we GURPS fans had come to the 4e version expecting another straight conversion of a 3e product to 4e (after all, that's what we got with 4e versions of Basic Set and Magic, and with the 2e-to-3e versions of the book). The previous version of Space won an Origins award (and I feel this was because it was a one-stop shop for playing a space campaign). The new version does not follow that model. It's a different product. So be it. But, . . . the powers that be shouldn't be surprised that old players will bring their 3e baggage to 4e, and naming new products with an old name is just asking for hurt feelings.

Second, there are a couple of places where the 4e version could have done a better job. For instance, even though both Patrol and Ranger character types are mentioned repeatedly, there are no templates for them. That was disappointing. And frankly, I thought two world building systems was overkill. In my campaigns, the starship has been at least as important as the worlds, and often much more important than the next world-of-the-week. In fact, I could really dig a campy pulp system that came down to a single roll. Roll 1d: 1) jungle world; 2) ice world; 3) desert world; 4) cyberpunk world; 5) idealistic futuretopia world; 6) post-apocalyptic world. I realize not everyone plays like I do, but I bet some people do. I wish the world-building systems had been consolidated and the extra space used for a more generic version of the IW ship design system. Problem solved.

Now, I love the 4e Alien design system. It is far more useful than the old 3e system. But, for an old GURPS warhorse like myself, the shiny 4e version just does not appeal to me as much as my dog-eared 3e book. The new version is great, but not what I wanted.