What GURPS needs... now

[lordabdul]

Originally Posted by mook

Which, honestly, really makes me sad. I've mentioned elsewhere, but it feels like a Betamax vs. VHS situation.

So you're saying that, to win, GURPS needs to release some porn sourcebooks? :D

More seriously, although everything you're saying about DnD is super interesting, it's also, as you mentioned, a special case because of how giant DnD is. I think it's more realistic to, instead, take lessons from more, ahem, normal successes.

For instance: FATE and Savage Worlds? First, are they even more popular as GURPS? (I've got no idea, frankly... it feels like they are but it's just based on anecdotal evidence). One has an SRD/OGL and the other not, so that probably doesn't play enough of a role that it can't be balanced by other factors. To me (again, gut feeling) it feels like they are successful because they model their product line on gamers' profiles, i.e. a small part are toolbox tinkerer, and a majority just want a ready-to-play game. As a result, you have a few "toolkit" sourcebooks, but a bigger bunch of world/setting books. GURPS did that at some point with THS, WW2, etc... but it looks like they mostly gave up and figured that they would only cater to the toolbox tinkerers... frankly I originally expected things like After The End or Monster Hunters to be fixed settings, but they turned out to be specialized toolboxes... which is totally fine (I'm partially in the "toolbox tinkerer" market myself) but, well, it's not "what GURPS needs....now" IMHO (assuming what it "needs" is to grow its fan base by attracting other types of gamers... nobody really challenged this premise... maybe what it "needs" is to create more toolbox tinkerer gamers and otherwise keep specializing in that corner).

Originally Posted by dbm

I was reminded recently of the Worlds of Adventure for Fate series. These were Kickstarted a while back and keep trundling in occasionally as they get completed. They are, in effect, micro-settings for Fate. I wonder if similar could be done for GURPS?

As evidenced by what I just said above, I would be totally in favour of this! It might be a good way to gauge interest over a variety of settings quickly.

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Like say, Psi-Wars (Mailanka's Star Wars adaption), or Star Wars outright if that sugar daddy ever shows up.

GURPS The Expanse would have been an awesome adaptation, IMHO, if SJG had managed to grab that license while it was hot. I mean, The Expanse is basically THS without the bioroids and AIs.

Originally Posted by namada

I mean, all you need is Basic Set + Space for that, start with 250 pt characters, 300 pt, 500 pt, whatever.

If you fall in the "toolbox tinkerer" part of the gamer market yes. But most people don't, either because they don't want to, feel they might not do a good job, or just can't because they don't have the luxury of extra prep time.

Plus, it's not "just" about Basic Set + Space -- you still need to pick which parts to use and not use, figure out what kind of "feel" you want for your game in terms of how spaceships behave, whether space dogfights are a thing, how gun fights in space station corridors are like, aliens or not, robots or not, how far human colonization went, how much politics vs action, what are the main factions and NPCs, etc... world building, while super fun, is easily the biggest time sink, and even if you instead adapt something existing (like, say, The Expanse or Star Wars) you still will need to spend a lot of up front prep time to, well, adapt all that stuff in terms of GURPS rules. It's a lot of work, there's no "just" in this. That's why most people delegate that to professional game designers and get it all neatly packaged in book.

[namada]

My problem with DF, as a line of product, is that all (or close to it) of those races & templates exist in GURPS Fantasy, all you need do is add a couple hundred points to PCs, & you get the same effect for nothing. Therefore, it's a waste of time & resources as a product line for the buyers. Other, better stuff could have been produced instead. How it became popular & actually made money despite those facts is utterly mystifying to me. I just don't get it, and I never will. Pre-worked powers, on the other hand, are time savers, so I can see how that's a thing. I can at least understand someone buying that. But, since the same races & templates existed in Fantasy, and all you needed to do was add 150 starting points to play something akin to DF - yeah, that's a total waste of time & resources to anyone with the sense to understand that.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by namada

My problem with DF, as a line of product, is that all (or close to it) of those races & templates exist in GURPS Fantasy, all you need do is add a couple hundred points to PCs, & you get the same effect for nothing.

Its a timesaver.
Choice paralysis in GURPS is a definite thing because there are so many options and those templates help the player focus and choose more quickly.

[DaosusLeghki]

This is my first post on this forum. I made an account specifically to post my thoughts on this matter.

I bought the Basic Set about 10 years ago. I have never played GURPS. I just bought a copy of DFRPG and will try to pitch it to my players as soon as I familiarize myself with it. Here are the things that kept me from trying GURPS using the Basic Set:

1. The books are wonderfully written reference books that fit any and every setting. But, to go from "I want to play" to "I am ready to play" will take a 2-3+ page document describing what stuff from the Basic Set is available and which rules we are using/not using.

2. Players are lazy and will not read the Basic Set. They will not read my 2-3 page document. They will not even read their spells when playing DnD. So, Templates are a must have, but will require me to write up a bunch of templates in a system I'm not familiar with.

3. After all that, the game might not be a good fit, and I'll have to scrap all that work.

It is absolutely true that GURPS is a toolkit system. But what I need to be able to sell that toolkit is a pre-designed structure that my players can build with that toolkit. Without that, there is a bunch of work I have to do "on speculation," so to speak. As a comparison, I can pick up a Savage Worlds setting, give it a quick read through, and go.

The only other hurdle to me picking up GURPS was that I could not find DFRPG in print for several months. I am aware that PDFs are a thing. I do not like using them -- just personal preference.

So, what would I like to get other players into GURPS? Well, DFRPG is a great start. I would also love a sci-fi book. Something that has character creation rules, a fairly simplified set of game rules, space ships and rules on how to fly them and fight with them, and a short adventure that highlights the core activities you would be doing in this mini-setting.

I'm aware that I could build all this. I would just really like not to have to.

[tbone]

Originally Posted by namada

But, since the same races & templates existed in Fantasy, and all you needed to do was add 150 starting points to play something akin to DF - yeah, that's a total waste of time & resources to anyone with the sense to understand that.

You can happily count me among the senseless hordes who thoroughly disagree. : ) Like Refplace says, it's a timesaver, and that is the value-add for a lot of gamers. Yeah, we can work out stuff in DF on our own, using just Basic Set and Fantasy – or we can pay a bit and let professionals do it for us. I like that option. (And before anyone says "but that's a lot of money. . . ", consider this bonus: with DF, a GM doesn't have to buy GURPS Fantasy. If either DF or Fantasy will set you up for fantasy gaming, why consider the purchase of one a good buy, and the purchase of the other a waste?)

Sure, the pros put out some stuff I could have created from older books, but a line like DF offers lots cool ideas that I definitely wouldn't have come up with on my own. Players get to benefit from ideas by Sean and other talented writers, not just my own limited brain-drippings.

(As support for the "let the pros work it out" concept, I'll note that D&D has always been "here's a ready-to-play game", and never "here's a toolbox; build your own game". It seems to do pretty well commercially.)

As a side item, there's also the matter of RPG books as an art form. The DF line comes from good artists (i.e., designers/writers). It's not just fun to play, it's fun to read, too. For some gamers, that alone is worth the purchase.

Actually, the "why do people like DF?" discussion doesn't interest me much; they clearly do, and so the project was clearly a good idea, and that's where it stands.

But changing topics to potential future directions: I see calls up above for "space opera boxed set" or some such.

It comes up a lot, it's been discussed a lot, it sounds like fun, and sure, I'd probably be one of the first to back a project like that . . . but I wonder, is there good reason to think it'd be a business success? Are there other space opera properties out there drawing attention and $$? Is the timing right for this, for particular reasons?

I'm not suggesting it's a bad idea, commercially. Just wondering, as I really have no idea.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by tbone

(As support for the "let the pros work it out" concept, I'll note that D&D has always been "here's a ready-to-play game", and never "here's a toolbox; build your own game". It seems to do pretty well commercially.)

Actually in the very days (ie 1e OD&D) D&D was far closer to the "here's a toolbox; build your own game" then was true in the later editions for the very simple reason it came from a miniature game (Chainmail) with role playing elements tacked on.

I should mention that there were other "here's a ready-to-play game" that have their fans but didn't get to the level of D&D. Get a copy of the old Dragon magazine CD ROM and look over the ads and realize how many of the games are even less well known then GURPS (or are even in print anymore).

Aftermath!, Chivalry and Sorcery, Daredevils, and Flashing Blades are just a sampling of what was back in the 1980s. Then you have the vapor games like K Society's Anywhen which comes off as a GURPS want a be.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by tbone

is there good reason to think it'd be a business success?

No direct reason, which is one of the reasons they haven't done it. Dungeon crawling fantasy is by a huge margin the most successful ttrpg genre, which is why they started there, and when it developed that it wasn't a smashing success, that rather cooled enthusiasm for any second box set.

That said, there would seem to be a market for such a thing. Space adventure is a reasonably popular second-tier genre; there's no dominant player, but Traveller looks like it will never die, and there's been a succession of other such games. And GURPS has a reasonably well developed infrastructure for space adventure games, with lots of parts from Ultra-Tech to all manner of relevant rules in the Action series which could be pressed into place.

That said, if such a space adventure product or series to be written, I wouldn't expect it to be kitchen sink space adventure. Rather, I'd expect a game about something fairly focused: space marines fighting aliens (hence the recurring talk about "Bug Hunt"), space merchants, or the like instead of fairly open-ended "space opera."

[lordabdul]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

That said, if such a space adventure product or series to be written, I wouldn't expect it to be kitchen sink space adventure. Rather, I'd expect a game about something fairly focused: space marines fighting aliens (hence the recurring talk about "Bug Hunt"), space merchants, or the like instead of fairly open-ended "space opera."

Does SJG still have the Traveller license? If so it could also be a batteries-included, boxed set version of GURPS Traveller.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by lordabdul

Does SJG still have the Traveller license? If so it could also be a batteries-included, boxed set version of GURPS Traveller.

Pretty sure that ran out several years ago. There's some kind of arrangement whereby old GT works are still being sold, but the publisher listed is Far Future Enterprises, not SJ Games.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

Pretty sure that ran out several years ago. There's some kind of arrangement whereby old GT works are still being sold, but the publisher listed is Far Future Enterprises, not SJ Games.

Far Future Enterprises own web site says otherwise: "We work closely with other publishers (Mongoose, Steve Jackson Games, RPG Realms, Seeker, RPGNow, and DriveThruRPG) who publish their own versions of our products under license from FFE" This is supported by SJG own website which lists most of the Traveler stuff available as PDFs

I suspect SJG has something like what they appear to have for Conan - they can keep the old stuff "in print" but not make anything new (ie upgrade to 4e) without agreeing to a new license. Stuff that SJG doesn't have the license for anymore is only available from resales.