[Basic] Realistic Low Tech Challengers

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Anders

In our surviving oldest laws, it is specified what kind of armaments were required to be part of the levy - helmet, shield and a weapon (typically spear or axe). As you say, torso armor was not specified and was probably rare.

I've heard it argued that such armor would be much more common in the front rank compared to the back ranks.

[A Ladder]

Update based on all your guys' suggestions, thanks!

Caveman Hunter
ST: 11 HP: 11 Speed: 5.50
DX: 11 Will: 10 Move: 5
IQ: 10 Per: 11
HT: 11 FP: 10 SM: 0
Dodge: 8 Parry: 9 DR: 1*
Spear (12): One hand 1d+1(0.5) impaling or two hands 1d+2(0.5) impaling.
Thrown Spear (12+2): 1d+2(0.5) impaling, Range 11/16, Shots T(1), Bulk -6.
Traits: Duty to their Tribe.
Skills: Area Knowledge-10; Armoury (melee or ranged weapons)-10; Camouflage-11; Machinist-10; Naturalist-11; Navigation-10; Spear-12, Stealth-11; Survival-11; Thrown Weapon (Spear)-12, Tracking-11.
Class: Mundane.
Notes: Spears are made of stone (p. B275).
Notable gear includes: Fur Loincloth and Tunic (covering groin and torso), $35, 2 lbs. Personal Basics, $5, 1 lb. Sleeping Fur, $50, 8 lbs, Spear $40, 4lbs.

Early Imperial Roman Legionnaire
ST: 12 HP: 11 Speed: 5.50
DX: 11 Will: 10 Move: 3*
IQ: 10 Per: 10
HT: 11 FP: 10 SM: 0
Dodge: 6*+3 Parry/Block: 9+3 DR: 5 (see notes)
Shortsword, Gladius (13): 1d+2 cutting or 1d-1 impaling.
Javelin, Pilum (13): 1d impaling.
Dagger, Pugio (12): 1d-2 impaling.
Traits: Fit. Shield-Wall Training.
Skills: Brawling-11, Hiking-12, Knife-12, Shield-13, Shortsword-13, Soldier-12, Thrown Weapon (Spear)-13, Wrestling-11. Centurions will have Leadership-11, Strategy-11, Tactics-11, and Teaching-10.
Class: Mundane.
Notes: Move and dodge reduced from encumbrance. Makes HT rolls at 12, due to Fit. The legionnaire only has DR 5 on their torso, DR 4 on their skull and face, and DR 2 on their feet.
Notable gear includes: Boots $80, 3 lbs; Gladius $400, 2 lbs; Legionary Helmet $150, 6 lbs; Lorica Segmentata $680, 26 lbs; Pilum, $30, 2 lbs; Pugio $20, 0.25 lbs; Scutum $90, 25 lbs.

Roman Auxilia, Sagittarii
ST: 11 HP: 11 Speed: 5.25
DX: 11 Will: 10 Move: 4*
IQ: 10 Per: 10
HT: 10 FP: 10 SM: 0
Dodge: 7* Parry: n/a DR: 4/2 (see notes)
Composite Bow, Arcum (13): 1d+2 impaling.
Traits: Fit.
Skills: Bow-13, Hiking-12, Soldier-12.
Class: Mundane.
Notes: Move and dodge reduced from encumbrance. Makes HT rolls at 11, due to Fit. Sagittarii only have DR 4/2 on their groin and torso, and DR 3 on their skull.
Notable gear includes: Arcum $900, 4 lbs; Bronze Pot-Helm $160, 7.5 lbs; Hip Quiver $15, 1 lb; holding 20 arrows $40, 2 lbs; and Mail Hauberk $230, 25 lbs.

Roman Auxilia, Funditores
ST: 11 HP: 11 Speed: 5.25
DX: 11 Will: 10 Move: 5
IQ: 10 Per: 10
HT: 10 FP: 10 SM: 0
Dodge: 8 Parry: n/a DR: 0
Sling, Funda (13): 1d+2 piercing.
Traits: Fit.
Skills: Hiking-12, Sling-13, Soldier-12.
Class: Mundane.
Notes: Makes HT rolls at 11, due to Fit. Notable gear includes: Funda $20, 0.5 lbs, and use lead bullets (p. B276) carrying 20 of them in a pouch $10, 1 lb.

Viking Raider
ST: 11 HP: 11 Speed: 5.25
DX: 11 Will: 10 Move: 5
IQ: 10 Per: 10
HT: 10 FP: 10 SM: 0
Dodge: 8+2 Parry/Block: 9+2 DR: 0 (see notes)
Weapons (13): Axe (1d+3 cutting), Broadsword (1d+2 cutting or 1d+1 impaling), or Spear (1d+1 impaling (one hand) or 1d+2 impaling (two hands)).
Bow (12): 1d+1 impaling.
Knife (12): 1d-1 cutting or 1d-1 impaling.
Traits: Fit.
Skills: Axe/Mace-13, Broadsword-13, or Spear-13, Boating-12, Bow-12, Knife-12, Navigation-12, Seamanship-12, Shield-12, Swimming-11, Wrestling-11.
Class: Mundane.
Notes: Makes HT rolls at 11, due to Fit. The Viking raider only has DR 4 on their skull. Only half of any group of Viking raiders carry bows. Wealthy Vikings will be equipped with either Cloth Armor ($30, 6 lbs) or a Mail Hauberk ($230, 25 lbs) and Thrusting Broadsword ($600, 3 lbs) instead of an Axe. Additional armor reduces move and dodge by 1.
Notable gear includes: Axe $50, 4 lbs or Spear $40, 4lbs. Large Knife $40, 1 lb; Longbow $200, 3 lbs; Medium Shield $60, 15 lbs; Pot Helm $100, 5 lbs; a Hip Quiver $15, 1 lb; holding 20 arrows $40, 2 lbs.

Dragoon Musketeer.
ST: 11 HP: 11 Speed: 5.00
DX: 11 Will: 10 Move: 4*
IQ: 10 Per: 10
HT: 10 FP: 10 SM: 0
Dodge: 7* Parry: 9 DR: 4 (skull only)
Melee Weapon (11): Rapier (1d impaling), Saber (1d cutting or 1d impaling), or Spear (1d+2 impaling).
Musket (13): 4d pi++.
Pistol (12): Shot (2d-1 pi+)
Traits: None.
Skills: Fast-Draw (Ammo)-13, Guns (musket)-13, Guns (Pistol)-12, Riding-13, Soldier-12. One of Rapier-11, Saber-11, or Spear-11.
Class:
Notes: Move and dodge reduced from encumbrance while on foot.
Notable gear includes: Boots $80, 3 lbs; Flintlock Pistol $200, 3 lbs; Matchlock Musket $150, 20 lbs; Pot-Helm $100, 5 lbs. One of Rapier $500, 2.75 lbs, Saber $700, 2 lbs, or Spear $40, 4 lbs.



Change log: Reduced cavemen hunter to just a spear
Roman legionnaire split into Auxilia (archer and slinger)
Viking Raider removed armor, option for wealthier vikings
Musketeer changed to a Dragoon, updated.
(Not shown) updated spears on Spartan and Hoplite to the Long Spear.

[Rasna]

I think Ability at DX+2 for primary skills should qualify for soldiers with good training but without much experience. Veterans should have their primary weapon skill at DX+3 or even DX+4 for elite corps like English Bowmen and Varangian Guards. Skill at DX+5 or DX+6 only for very hardened veterans and weapon masters.

ST 12-13 as average for Spartans and Legionnaires seems too high. The average soldier would have ST 10-11 with +1 or +2 Lifting ST.
ST 12 is more appropriate for units like Doppelsoldners, Varangians, Grenadiers and Cuirassiers.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by ericthered

I've heard it argued that such armor would be much more common in the front rank compared to the back ranks.

Some ancient and medieval sources talk about that, but remember that there might be 3 byrnies among the 50 men in a longship! So "much more common" is relative.

We don't have much evidence on the exact numbers, but even in days with much more specialization and better tools and economies of scale, mail was terribly expensive.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by phayman53

Hoplites seem to have gone from heavier armor to less over the course of the classical period, increasingly relying on their shield. Even during the Persian Wars they mostly would have been wearing textile armor on their torso.

The problem with this argument is that textile armour weighs more than bronze armour. The whole point of going to the trouble and expense of using metal to make armour is that it weighs less than any other available material. We know that the Greeks moved away from metal armour in favour of leather and textiles but it wasn't to reduce weight.

[phayman53]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

The problem with this argument is that textile armour weighs more than bronze armour. The whole point of going to the trouble and expense of using metal to make armour is that it weighs less than any other available material. We know that the Greeks moved away from metal armour in favour of leather and textiles but it wasn't to reduce weight.

I wasn't really referring weight, rather heavy as in heavily protected (poor choice of words). They were opting for less protective armor or no torso armor at all, regardless of the weight. I imagine this most likely had to do with cost, more hoplites could serve if they didn't have to buy such expensive armor. My point was bronze torso armor was mostly abandoned for less protective torso armor or none all.

[Tuk the Weekah]

Originally Posted by A Ladder

TL0
Neanderthal Hunter
ST: 13 HP: 13 Speed: 5.50
DX: 11 Will: 10 Move: 5
IQ: 10 Per: 11
HT: 11 FP: 10 SM: 0
Dodge: 8 Parry: 9 DR: 1* (See notes)
Weapons (12): Axe (2d+1(0.5) cutting), Light Club (2d crushing), or Spear (One hand 1d+3(0.5) impaling or two hands 1d+4(0.5) impaling).
Traits: Dislikes Strangers, Dislikes large groups, Distinctive features: Neanderthal brow, Dull, Damage Resistance 1 (Skull Only), Feature: Temperature comfort zone is much lower than ordinary humans, the zone is somewhere around 25* to 80*.
Skills: Either Axe/Mace-12, Broadsword-12, or Spear-12. Area Knowledge-10; Armoury (melee or ranged weapons)-10; Camouflage-11; Machinist-10; Naturalist-11; Navigation-10; Stealth-11; Survival-11; Tracking-11.
Notes: The hunter only has one weapon, choose between an Axe, Light Club, or Spear. Axes and Spears are made of stone (p. B275). Neanderthals have an additional 1 DR on the skull.
Noteable gear includes: Fur Loincloth and Tunic (covering groin and torso), $35, 2 lbs. Personal Basics, $5, 1 lb. Sleeping Fur, $50, 8 lbs. And their weapon of choice.

I'd not include Dull if you're looking at a realistic representation. There's zero evidence that Neanderthals were in any way mentally deficient when compared to modern humans.

Here's an interesting thought, however; Neanderthal males were highly asymmetrical in their upper bodies, with up to 50% asymmetry between right (bigger) and left (smaller) sides. Modern humans are typically 4-13% asymmetrical. (I am one of the 'most right-handed people' my physio has ever met, according to her; and I barely tip the scales at 9% asymmetry.) It's theorized that this could be a muscle specialization--left hand for delicate tasks, right hand for brute strength tasks--but the simpler explanation to my mind is the theory that it is an artifact of constant use of the one-handed scrapers that are the iconic Neanderthal tool find. Female Neanderthals also show signs of right-handed asymmetry; but the small sample sizes for females makes it difficult to be certain if this is reflective or an accident of sampling.

This asymmetry would suggest that they scraped right-handedly, and used swinging weapons right-handedly, but used thrusting weapons left-handedly. The asymmetry would suggest that they get a base ST 11, but add several levels of (3pt) Arm Strength (right side only). The lack of symmetry would also suggest that they would not get the Off Hand Weapon Training perk or skill, as it suggests being equally proficient with both hands, which would be clearly inaccurate, given that high a level of asymmetry.

Oh, and the fact that their right-handedness is even more prevalent than in humans suggest that they were a highly co-operative society.

I do not understand the rationale behind the one-weapon rule; it seems irrational. A hunter would carry a scraping tool, a knife, and some type of bush tool (a hand axe, for instance). Once you've killed the animal, you have to bleed it, then butcher it. Even if you don't use fire, you'll still need to clear brush for a shelter.