DF World: Do non-humans have their own countries?

[Greg 1]

In your DF world, do non-humans have their own countries, or do they just hang around in human countries?

[thulben]

I tend to think of Elves as a stand in (or allegory) for Native Americans. That is, noble protectors of nature; they probably live in the forests (and most others understand the forests to be theirs). Orcs I think of like stereotypical Mongolians - tribal and nomadic. As such, they probably don't have a place you can point to and say "they live right here in this city", but there's probably an area where, if you go there, you'll probably encounter one group or another of them after a while. I'm not sure who dwarves were patterned after.

But my point is that early (hell... even contemporary) fantasy tends to paint the humanoid races with a broad stroke and the brush is "existing human cultures".

[chandley]

For me:

Elves clearly have their own countries. The age gap, the brutal Sense of Duty, the fact that Half-Elves have a Social Stigma AND dont get the equipment perk... However, I tend to mix the TYPE of elves in a given country pretty thoroughly. There are mountain elves in forests kingdoms and winged elves in shadow elf caves. Fairies are found co-existing with elves while maintaining their own royalty, policies, and politics. Both groups see nothing unusual about any of this, and it all seems to work for them.

Dwarves (Dwarfs?) too get their own countries, largely based on the gear perk. They stay homogeneous largely because none of the other friendly races care to live underground.

Coleopterans dont so much have countries as autonomous hives. Very homogeneous, other races find them too creepy to really settle down to live in a hive.

The friendly races, Cat-folk, Corpse-Eaters (as criminals or in hiding), Dark Ones, Gargoyles (as pests), Gnomes, Halflings, Half-Elves, Humans, and Minotaurs all live mixed together in countries that are not particularly racially branded. They are not "human" countries with other races as minorities, but each country does have it's own mix. Some of these countries tolerate some of the other cross breeds (Half-orc and Half-Ogre) as well. No one would raise an eyebrow at a gnome king with an adopted cat-folk heir or a republic to have a halfling candidate set against a human. Goblinoids outside of the half-breeds are visitors or second-class citizens at best.

The Goblinoids form their own societies, and some of those rise to the level of country. Most half-orc, half-ogre, and ogre populations are in these countries as well. They dont reach the pinnacles of technology available in the campaign, and tend to be bad neighbors (lots of raiding and brush wars).

The Dragon-blooded have their own countries. Legend has it, these are founded on the bones of other countries, and may contain slaves of other races. Or not, depending.

Lizard Men, Trolls, and Wildmen are benighted savages amassing in large tribal groups at best.

Of my non-official races, Arukun mix with the friendly races, Snake-Men have their own "lost" (mostly just isolationist) civilizations, and hags and treants are Fairy. Centaur and their variants form nomadic groups with a surprisingly high tech level.

[Bruno]

My countries aren't "The human country #4", "Dwarf country #2", they have a pretty diverse mix - although some have a majority of a particular species, which in turn suggests the most populous minority groups.

A country with 60% elves is a good place for the other fey creatures, exalted animals, and wildmen, due to the high incidence of Sense of Duty: Nature. A country with 70% goblinoids is going to be a mishmash of goblinoids, probably with high minority populations of ogres, humans, and worgs (all species that get along reasonably well with goblinoids). The so-called dwarven kingdoms might be ruled by dwarves, but there's a lot of gnomes and humans, and probably small groups of coleopterans.

Humans are everywhere, being the cockroaches of the fantasy world: happy living anywhere almost any of the other races are happy to live, and nearly impossible to get rid of once they show up. In human-dominant areas I think you'd see more halflings, gnomes, dwarves, and goblinoids. Elves might be welcome (they're so pretty) but elves probably won't be happy to stay; goblinoids on the other hand may not be welcome but they're definitely willing to stay regardless.

The two reptilian races seem to prefer different environments so they won't mix with each other much, but there are guarenteed to be elves that like either environment. With Lizardfolk being fairly primitive (typically), they are more likely to get along(ish) with elves and wildmen. At least, they won't be clear-cutting woodland and digging peat for burning, so they won't be at odds in that sense. And of course humans again, because cockroaches.

Dragonmen in desert or mountainous regions will probably be co-existing with coleopterans, humans (of course), and dwarves (the amount of mineral resources under deserts is really staggering).

I have trouble imagining a halfing-dominated country, same with gnomes. I just think someone else would come in and take it from them - probably humans, dwarves, or a pile of goblinoids.

[talonthehand]

I had Goblins develop a bizarre version of a meritocracy based civilization. The goblins would go into neighboring villages and kingdoms and the like and steal babies, and then fully adopt them and raise them as goblins. These were now goblins psychologically even though they were elves or dwarves or whatever physiologically (kinda like Valentine Michael Smith in Stranger in a Strange Land).

This eventually led to the ruler being King Kal-Thuz the Eternal Conquest, an elf-goblin.

[Buzzardo]

Some do. Some don't.

Elves, Dwarves, Catfolk, Wolf-folk, and Orcs all have their own kingdoms. Halflings, Gnomes, Faeries, Goblins, and Ogres have enclaves inside other kingdoms. Lizard folk have territories but aren't organized enough to have something like a kingdom.

(I'm not sure my campaign qualifies as a DF campaign. I make my own races and have lots going on outside of dungeons, including several smaller story arcs with an over-arching story arc. But it is a fantasy campaign with umpteen races, and some do have their own kingdoms.)

Oh, the undead have a kingdom, too. :)

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Bruno

I have trouble imagining a halfing-dominated country, same with gnomes. I just think someone else would come in and take it from them - probably humans, dwarves, or a pile of goblinoids.

I do like the idea, however, that there's a nation with a majority of gnomes and halflings, somewhere, who seem to have an endless succession of rulers of other races who just never seem to make much difference - they come in, declare they're in charge now, the halflings and gnomes smile and nod, start serving them really big dinners and putting on entertaining illusion shows, nodding whenever the new boss delivers some kind of order, and telling them that, oh yes, master, it's being done, just as you say, sir!

Meanwhile, they're quietly getting on with their lives and doing just what they'd be doing otherwise. They basically think of it as a way of hiring some mercenaries to defend the nation, and just skipping the whole step of "mercenaries get too powerful, think they can take over their former masters". Whenever a new boss comes in to try to take over, they just stay out of the way and let the old boss fight it out.

[Humabout]

I generally prefer to treat all nonhumans as supernatural beings, fae, spirits, or the like. As such, they don't necessarily have countries, affiliations, or even reasons to exist where they are found. No one asks why there's an ogre, they just grab pitchforks and torches.

This doesn't mean BBEGs don't occasionally gather up supernatural creatures to their causes. It also doesn't mean some benevolent demigod might not keep a court of supernatural good guys. But nonhumans get a mythological treatment.

Humans do get countries, or at least city-states. Corrupted or mutated humans (supernatual bastard humans, sorcerers turned to goatmen by their demonic dealings, etc.) may form outcast tribes and bands or even establish their own countries.

It's also worth noting that I like my delving with two scoops of Conan/sword and sorcery and not too much Tolkein.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Bruno

I have trouble imagining a halfing-dominated country, same with gnomes. I just think someone else would come in and take it from them - probably humans, dwarves, or a pile of goblinoids.

Halflings tend to have good abilities with ranged weapons and stealth, and in DF are more-or-less explicitly the Mob. Expect the country to be run in a manner fitting the Italian Mafia, and for warfare to favor guerilla hit-and-run (well, hit-and-vanish, small legs don't lend themselves well to running) tactics rather than straight up combat. An invading army is likely to find its command structure assassinated and its soldiers set upon while on the march. Less structured invasions may be more effective, but are hardly foolproof, as you'll be fighting on the halflings' own territory.

Gnomes tend to have a lot of spellcasters, and are natural tinkers. That latter bit may well make gnome kingdoms rather wealthy (thanks to proceeds from selling inventions), which can combine with the former to outfit their army with magical gear, which may allow them to overwhelm stronger but less well-equipped armies. Wealth can also allow them to hire mercenaries, although that can be a risky proposition. Their greater proportion (presumably) of spellcasters may also make them difficult foes to fight, and you never know what nasty surprises lay in store for you.

Of course, that doesn't mean they need to have countries of their own - both races lend themselves well to living in others' lands, and if they existed in my setting they'd likely be eligible for nobility in most countries.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

The last DF world i thought up didn't have "countries". The largest polities were still just city states. Some were very populous city states thanks to magical sources of food and water, but ruling large tracts of land was impractical. So the non-humans generally lived in their own autonomous communities or nomadic tribes.

My own setting doesn't have particularly large countries, due to the "1 month rule" - a country that is too large for an army to march from any given point to another point within a month is too large to maintain. This isn't really an absolute limit, but the vast majority of polities are much smaller, and I don't have any plans for there to be any that are larger. The one month limit is based on the "war season" being two months long, so if it takes you more than a month to rally your army, there isn't really anything you can do with it (a country that only fights defensive wars will ultimately fail, because its neighbors will be able to become too powerful - the world is pretty conflict-heavy).

I'll need to look at my notes again, but I believe this would limit a flat country to roughly the size of modern France. Add in hills, mountains, forests, rivers, and so forth, and the actual size is a good deal smaller. Not city-state size, of course, but probably closer to the size of a typical US State than a typical country.

[sir_pudding]

My last DF game had:

• A more or less cosmopolitan region of independent kingdoms with various demographic but overall dominated by humans.
• A mountain range with goblinkin, trolls, wildmen, yeti and winged and mountain elf tribes. Beneath was a vast Dwarven kingdom. Above was a ruined flying city inhabited by winged-elves, faerie-folk, gnomes, demons, undead and a dragon.
• An aggressive desert empire ruled by an undead avatar of an elder god, with human and beast-folk (cat, beetle, lizard and dog) subjects.
• A forest dominated by wood elves, but with faerie folk, human, and halfling villages.
• A secretive order of Dragonblooded with monastery-citadels in isolated locations all over the world.
• An ancient city-state in a marshland ruled by shadow elves, with a sizable minority population of dark ones and a couple of dragons.
• A hilly badlands with goblinkin and giants. In the center of this was the vast corpse of an elder god, surrounded by the camps of psionic pilgrims of all races inhabited within by Mind-Warpers and their servants.
• Seven sprawling ruined cities built by a civilization that never existed.