Worry - teeth and crippling

[cupbearer]

hi
I came across a cool rule in Martial arts that lets a wolf or dog grapple after it has bitten (Teeth on pg 115), my question is with the wording of the rule as it states that if your SM is not larger than the victim you can't cripple a limb. I'm wondering if that is in respect to crippling through a grapple or if they mean that that the accumulated damage from "worrying" cannot contribute to the limb being crippled?

It's not very clear to me, I think realistically the worry attack should be able to cripple, whereas I can understand that the grapple cannot as the dog might not be big enough to exert enough force to actually break the arm. But I want the official ruling if possible.

PS I know you can cripple a the tendon, but i'm avoiding that conversation right now

PPS - bonus question - in your opinion do you think that a normal animal like a wolf should qualify for the +1SM 0 point feature?

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by cupbearer

It's not very clear to me, I think realistically the worry attack should be able to cripple, whereas I can understand that the grapple cannot as the dog might not be big enough to exert enough force to actually break the arm. But I want the official ruling if possible.

Wolves and big dogs demonstratably can break limb ones with a bite in real life, so I'd allow it.

Originally Posted by cupbearer

PPS - bonus question - in your opinion do you think that a normal animal like a wolf should qualify for the +1SM 0 point feature?

Born Biter? Yes, that's what it's meant to model. All canines that aren't malformed lap dogs will have Born Biter at 1+.

[cupbearer]

Hi

Yeah but what do the rules say? Are you getting that reading as I am?

with respect to born biter, i don't know if i agree with you, as +1 means you can sever an arm by gnawing on it and i just don't think a dog can do that... maybe im wrong, but that kind of force is hard to produce. And if a wolf does have the +1 then perhaps the above is not correct, maybe you can't cripple with worrying because it assumes everything smaller than a big dog or wolf...

[Dalillama]

Keep in mind that most domestic dogs are SM -1 or smaller.

EDIT:
I checked my copy of MA, it says that for (effective) SM no greater thatn the target, you can't cripple on the initial attack. Worrying explicitly can cripple but can't dismember at equal SM. So an SM 0 wolf or Rottweiler with Born Biter I can rip limbs off an adult human by worrying, but a coyote or collie or beagle (SM-1, Born Biter 1) can cripple by worrying, hut not dismember.Smaller targets arw another matter

[cupbearer]

Originally Posted by Dalillama

Keep in mind that most domestic dogs are SM -1 or smaller.

EDIT:
I checked my copy of MA, it says that for (effective) SM no greater thatn the target, you can't cripple on the initial attack. Worrying explicitly can cripple but can't dismember at equal SM. So an SM 0 wolf or Rottweiler with Born Biter I can rip limbs off an adult human by worrying, but a coyote or collie or beagle (SM-1, Born Biter 1) can cripple by worrying, hut not dismember.Smaller targets arw another matter

I have two problems:

1. the initial attack is just a bite, with cutting damage, why can't you cripple? Crippling can be from any attack its not representative of just broken bones, it can be muscle damage etc.... if biting is somehow exempt than i really misread this rule and this would be a pretty big change to how the system works.
2. I don't think it expressly says that worrying can cripple limbs, it discusses hands and fingers and noses etc, and in the above paragraph this makes sense because those are also discussed as targets to cripple in initial attack, so that's not expressly saying it, that's something you're inferring, (i'm trying not to reproduce the whole passage because i don't want to get in trouble, but i looked at it and i couldn't even quote the phrase you say is there that says this...)

Assuming we address #1 and 2, I wonder how it works together with the fact that I use the cumulative wounds rule for crippling? ie. i track wounds by body part, so multiple turns of damage from worrying could add up to crippling the wound.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by cupbearer

Hi

Yeah but what do the rules say? Are you getting that reading as I am?

This is what the Line Editor said:

Originally Posted by Kromm

Just saw a tiger two days ago, about 2m away. I'd say +1 to SM for biting; it has a muzzle (so there's some optimization for biting), but it's short. I saw a gator the same day, about 3m away. Now that's +3 to SM for biting. I'd estimate that most things with canine builds would be in between, at +2.

Originally Posted by cupbearer

with respect to born biter, i don't know if i agree with you, as +1 means you can sever an arm by gnawing on it and i just don't think a dog can do that... maybe im wrong, but that kind of force is hard to produce. And if a wolf does have the +1 then perhaps the above is not correct, maybe you can't cripple with worrying because it assumes everything smaller than a big dog or wolf...

Note that many dogs are 2-3 feet long and weigh less than 50 lbs. That's SM -2 to -3. Massive wolves and huge dogs that actually weigh something like 150 lbs. and are thus SM 0 will absolutely be able to crush human bones in their jaws.

[cupbearer]

Originally Posted by Icelander

This is what the Line Editor said:




Note that many dogs are 2-3 feet long and weigh less than 50 lbs. That's SM -2 to -3. Massive wolves and huge dogs that actually weigh something like 150 lbs. and are thus SM 0 will absolutely be able to crush human bones in their jaws.

Okay, but getting back to original question - are they talking about crippling from the grapple (like an arm lock) or from straight bite damage? For context consider that i use the cumulative wounds rule for crippling.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by cupbearer

Okay, but getting back to original question - are they talking about crippling from the grapple (like an arm lock) or from straight bite damage? For context consider that i use the cumulative wounds rule for crippling.

I am confident that no one here mentioned anything about dogs or wolves performing arm locks. If a gargantuan wolf that weighed as much as a man cripples a man's arm, it's probably because he crunched bones, bit off muscle and tore ligaments with his huge mouth, extremely strong jaws and sharp teeth, not because he performed an arm bar.