Very fine silver weapons prices--ouch!

[Alden Loveshade]

I'm not sure if this is a GCA 4 problem or a GURPS Basic Set problem or both, but here it is.

B275 under Silver Weapons (TL1): "Solid silver melee weapons or arrowheads cost 20 times list price, and break as if of cheap quality. Silver-coated and -edged weapons cost only three times list price, and use the breakage properties of the underlying material." As it says later in that section, adding a silver coating or silver edge changes the effect on silver-affected creatures and also reduces the wounding modifier, but does not affect the basic quality of the weapon.

The final prices varies by TL, level of silver, and weapon. I'll use silver-coating a thrusting broadsword at TL3. This means that a silver-coated standard-quality thrusting broadsword costs $1800; the cost of the sword ($600) plus two times that for the silver coating ($1200). Taken literally, the costs of sliver-coating a very fine thrusting broadsword (20 x $600 = $12,000) is two time that ($24,000!)

GCA 4 does this literally. Silver-coating a good broadsword costs $1200, while silver-coating a very fine broadsword costs $24,000. I think the cost for coating or edging a very fine broadsword should be the same as for a good (or fine or cheap, for that matter) broadsword.

Can this be fixed? (And yes, I can manually fix it for one particular weapon, but I think the program could use a fix, and maybe GURPS Basic Set could use a clarification).

[roguebfl]

they multiply together as it harder to silver coat a very fine sword and have it remain very fine (Ie the coat ruining the edge and/or balance)

[ericbsmith]

The program is working correctly, and doing exactly as the Basic Set rules are supposed to do.

Fortunately, the changes you want can be done. In fact, in GURPS Low-Tech they changed the multiplicative modifiers for equipment to use Cost Factor (CF) instead - these are essentially percentage modifiers, and adjust cost as you desire.

If you load the Low-Tech data file and then look for the "Low-Tech Composition" and "Low-Tech Weapon Quality" modifiers instead of the default ones from the Basic Set you'll get exactly what you want.

[Alden Loveshade]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

they multiply together as it harder to silver coat a very fine sword and have it remain very fine (Ie the coat ruining the edge and/or balance)

I disagree, but must admit I honestly don't know for certain. I do not claim to be an expert on swords, but I have sold them for some sword makers at historical recreationist events. These were both fantasy blades and real swords that could be used in battle; they were made of carbon steel, had a lifetime guarantee even if used in battle, and could and did break cheaper swords in combat (you don't want this to happen; it's costly and dangerous). One of our customers used one to cut down a tree (an axe works much better; it was just an experiment to see if the sword could do it). In GURPS, the reduction in the wounding modifier is probably accurate, but I don't know of such a test being done.

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

The program is working correctly, and doing exactly as the Basic Set rules are supposed to do.

Fortunately, the changes you want can be done. In fact, in GURPS Low-Tech they changed the multiplicative modifiers for equipment to use Cost Factor (CF) instead - these are essentially percentage modifiers, and adjust cost as you desire.

If you load the Low-Tech data file and then look for the "Low-Tech Composition" and "Low-Tech Weapon Quality" modifiers instead of the default ones from the Basic Set you'll get exactly what you want.

Thanks for the suggestions on changes; that may well take care of it. Again, I don't know of anyone actually coating a sword intended for battle with silver, so I think any price or damage adjustment is largely a guess. From a practical point of view, you can't make a very fine or even a good weapon out of silver--I do believe they would break as if cheap quality in real combat which is how GURPS describes them. I do think the cost modifier as listed would be unrealistic; I believe coating steel with silver is going to be largely the same regardless of the quality of the steel, not cost 20 times more. But again I don't know of anyone trying this with a sword intended for real use.

[Flyndaran]

Some price adjustments should be multiplicative and some should be additive. It would take enormous charts to predict everything.
Solid silver weapons can't be better than cheap without supernatural effects, so prices for those should be purely setting dependent.

But silver coatings should cost what they cost unrelated to the awesomeness of what's being coated.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Some price adjustments should be multiplicative and some should be additive. It would take enormous charts to predict everything.
Solid silver weapons can't be better than cheap without supernatural effects, so prices for those should be purely setting dependent.

But silver coatings should cost what they cost unrelated to the awesomeness of what's being coated.

I can't see why anyone would put silver on the blade either. Inlaid might look well on the hilt though.

[Alden Loveshade]

As ericbsmith said GCA 4 is following the description for the price increase as described in GURPS Basic Set Characters, I sent a note about it to the errata coordinator to see if it can be clarified/changed. It is, of course, possible that they won't think a change is needed.

Again, I don't know of someone actually coating both a good and a very fine iron/steel sword with silver and comparing how much it costs to coat one compared to coating the other. My opinion that it would not cost 20 times to coat one blade than another of the same size but different quality is largely conjecture. But I do still think it wouldn't.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Alden_Loveshade

My opinion that it would not cost 20 times to coat one blade than another of the same size but different quality is largely conjecture. But I do still think it wouldn't.

Well, the concern is that the coating process could easily reduce the quality of the blade, and the cost of avoiding quality reduction might well depend on blade quality. As we don't have any real historical examples of such coatings (electroplating a blade with silver is not exactly low tech and I'm not sure it would even work) the price is somewhat speculative.

[Alden Loveshade]

After wondering about this for quite a while, I just accidentally found this covered in MA p. 216:

Silver-coated or -edged weapons can be of any quality: +200%.