[Basic] Skill of the week: Soldier

[Phil Masters]

Originally Posted by acrosome

Well, what's stopping you from having Soldier (NYPD)? I mean, if Soldier (US Navy) is valid, that would have to be as well.

I really wouldn't specialise Soldier by force. (TL and familiarities are another matter, obviously.) And despite Roger's argument, Soldier or "Sailor" for military sailors still feels like too much skill bloat for me. And "Soldier" for policemen jars with me. (Commander Vimes would certainly have something to say on the matter...)

Originally Posted by acrosome

True, the term might be confusing, but so is Machinist/TL0 for flint knapping.

That's more an argument for not calling Flint Knapping "Machinist". Actually, Meteorology/Weather Sense already gives us a precedent for varying skill name by TL...

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

There is! GURPS Mysteries p. 112.

Point. It's there ... as a Professional Skill. Which really reinforces Roger's point about Soldier being better described as an archetypal Pro Skill. The rules it includes for routine equipment use could certainly be generalised across a lot of Pro Skills.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

That's more an argument for not calling Flint Knapping "Machinist". Actually, Meteorology/Weather Sense already gives us a precedent for varying skill name by TL...
<snip>

Point. It's there ... as a Professional Skill. Which really reinforces Roger's point about Soldier being better described as an archetypal Pro Skill. The rules it includes for routine equipment use could certainly be generalised across a lot of Pro Skills.

And that shows the problem which you folks face. Soldier is so much more likely to appear on character sheets and be rolled against than other Professional Skills are, so it deserves its own name, but someone in a Stone Age campaign may not know that the skill of making stone tools is under Machinist and Armoury. GURPS gets accused of having too many skills, and of using confusing names (but if they cleared up old mistakes like the name of the Honesty disadvantage, grognards would gripe about that too).

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

I really wouldn't specialise Soldier by force. (TL and familiarities are another matter, obviously.)

...How do familiarity penalties interact with the 'only for +4 or easier tasks' standard? Actually, that might be a question about penalties in general. But it seems like familiarity at least is exactly the sort of thing that should be able to shift tasks from allowed to disallowed.

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

Soldier or "Sailor" for military sailors still feels like too much skill bloat for me.

Civilian ships can have their own eccentric systems that you wouldn't be likely to find on a warship, but probably should roll into their experience of Seamanship.

Admittedly, PCs might find knowing how to work with and around a maritime bulk fish processing system to be a hard bit of knowledge to apply in play, but it's there...

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

...How do familiarity penalties interact with the 'only for +4 or easier tasks' standard? Actually, that might be a question about penalties in general. But it seems like familiarity at least is exactly the sort of thing that should be able to shift tasks from allowed to disallowed.

Civilian ships can have their own eccentric systems that you wouldn't be likely to find on a warship, but probably should roll into their experience of Seamanship.

Admittedly, PCs might find knowing how to work with and around a maritime bulk fish processing system to be a hard bit of knowledge to apply in play, but it's there...

Depends on the time. One time the seas were lawless and all sailors had to be warriors. Or at least had to know how to get out of the way of such.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

I really wouldn't specialise Soldier by force. (TL and familiarities are another matter, obviously.) And despite Roger's argument, Soldier or "Sailor" for military sailors still feels like too much skill bloat for me.

I can't really imagine not giving naval special operators like SEALS Soldier, and I'd probably expect naval combat engineers like the SeaBees to have it too.

Shipboard sailors and aviators? Well maybe. They do go to basic or officer training, and get training on boarding operations with personal weapons. They also learn the kinds of basic military courtesies that everybody else does (more even because of their arcane rating system shibboleths). So they should get an analogous professional skill, which is Seamanship, I think. What's the difference between Seamanship and a "Sailor" skill?

And "Soldier" for policemen jars with me. (Commander Vimes would certainly have something to say on the matter...)

As would Joseph Adama. Yeah, I definitely agree that Law Enforcement Officer is the correct skill for law enforcement officers and I'm a little confused why this isn't totally obvious.

Point. It's there ... as a Professional Skill. Which really reinforces Roger's point about Soldier being better described as an archetypal Pro Skill. The rules it includes for routine equipment use could certainly be generalised across a lot of Pro Skills.

Yes, I think this too is obvious. Is there any reason to not think Soldier is a professional skill?

[Ulzgoroth]

I don't think that training with personal weapons in any way implies the Soldier skill...

SEALs, SeaBees, and various sorts of marines, being substantially trained for soldiering outside any ships they might be attached to, need Soldier. Ship's crews who are taught how to use a gun don't really.

You could run into a bit of a problem if you had, say, elite boarding teams who really deserve the Tactical Shooting combat benefits of Soldier but have basically none of the primary functions of Soldier as they don't operate outside Crewman environments.

Originally Posted by jason taylor

Depends on the time. One time the seas were lawless and all sailors had to be warriors. Or at least had to know how to get out of the way of such.

Accuracy of the statement aside, I'm not sure what your point here is.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I don't think that training with personal weapons in any way implies the Soldier skill...

Yeah that's why I said maybe. Crewman makes more sense. However isn't Crewman for ships Seamanship? That seems a lot like "Sailor" but maybe I'm misreading something. I clarified what I wrote above.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Yeah that's why I said maybe. Crewman makes more sense. However isn't Crewman for ships Seamanship? That seems a lot like "Sailor" but maybe I'm misreading something.

The non-canonical 'Sailor' skill (or rather Professional Skill (Sailor)) talked about here was expressly in addition to the relevant Crewman skill:

"n my space-navy game I use Professional Skill (Sailor) for this purpose, which I should possibly have called something else; it fits alongside Spacer (living aboard ship, basic shipboard tasks) and Savoir-Faire (Military)."

"PS(Sailor) as a Soldier-equivalent is for all the things you get to do in the Navy that aren't spacecraft operation: drill, tactics, personal weapon maintenance, whom to salute and when, which cleaning nanites will get your boots shiny enough but not eat holes through them."

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Yeah that's why I said maybe. Crewman makes more sense. However isn't Crewman for ships Seamanship? That seems a lot like "Sailor" but maybe I'm misreading something. I clarified what I wrote above.

From eariler in the Skill of the week series...

Originally Posted by johndallman

Crewman is a family of IQ/E occupational TL skills that provide the ability to serve as part of the crew on a large vehicle, with a separate skill for each vehicle type. [...] They provide familiarity with life aboard, safety measures and damage control, such as patching holes.

The Spaceships series has many examples of using Spacer skill, which generalise to other skills. DF4: Sages has manuals for Seamanship, among many other skills. Thaumatology: Chinese Elemental Powers has some rules for the effects of magically altered environments on Crewman skills and Underground Adventures suggests how you might use Seamanship in place of some applications of Masonry.

The canonical Crewman skills are for airships, surface ships, spaceships and submarines [...]

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

The non-canonical 'Sailor' skill (or rather Professional Skill (Sailor)) talked about here was expressly in addition to the relevant Crewman skill:

Ah yes, okay. I agree that would be skill bloat.

I don't think giving SEALS Soldier is skill bloat though, it probably ought to be a primary skill for a SEAL template...