RoS: is defeating a single zone-mind always a Pyrrhic victory?

[Johan Larson]

In Reign of Steel, one strategy for the human resistance is defeating a single zone-mind and then somehow quickly consolidating their position as a human-run zone in a world of AIs.

Is that a viable strategy, or does the fall of any zone-mind just trigger a massive retaliation by all the other AIs?

Perhaps it would work best if the fallen zone were one of the real troublemakers, like Mexico City or Zaire.

[Rolando]

I think that is a very chancy bargain at best for the human resistance.

Most AIs will fear the capabilities of a human resistance able to eliminate another AI, even if it is a troublemaker. And fear is the main aggression builder and fear is what made Manila turn against humanity in the first place.

Many AI's will vote for a consolidated assault against the successful humans (Manila, Berlin, Mexico, Zaire will be the most militant).

I think that even Caracas may betray humas that kill Mexico, just to stay cool with the rest of AIs.

Serenity may be the only hope of support, but I doubt it will be enough.


The best alternative for humas it to somehow subvert an AI or kill it and make as if it is still alive somehow... doing something similar to London humans may fake it good enough to devise some survival strategy. Or faking a human/AI society similar to Washington.

But an outright killing will only bring the AIs together again, and give more political/moral power to Manila, Mexico, Zaire and Berlin.

[Johan Larson]

That sounds right.

OK, so if the humans are going to destroy a zone-mind, they have to destroy it quickly and completely, including the infrastructure. The other zones will mount a counterattack, and will try to reclaim the territory, presumably by giving the territory to the nearby zones. The quicker the humans get out, the less they are exposed to the counterattack, and the more the infrastructure is destroyed[*], the longer it will take for the new owners to set up shop again.

I suppose the nearby zones could come to blows over how to divide up the new territory. That might be a hook for the resistance. Step 1: destroy a zone-mind. Step 2: encourage the claimants to the territory to fight among themselves.

The other zones might also decide to awaken a new AI to replace the old one, rather than dividing up the territory.
[*] I picture vast armies of dumb-bots running lemming-like into the sea.

[Boomerang]

The idea that the humans could destroy an AI on their own would seem ridiculous to the AIs. The AIs would believe that another AI or group of AIs was ultimately behind the attack, perhaps to the extent that they may draw links between humans and AIs where none exist and provoke a civil war between the two main AI factions (awakened vs expansionist). The awakened essentially accusing the expansionists of being in an alliance with the humans.

[Johan Larson]

Offhand, if the strategy is to provoke a fight between AIs, which two would be the best targets? Vancouver and Moscow, maybe, who may already be in conflict over Siberia?

[tshiggins]

The smart move is not to destroy the AI, but to co-opt it.

The introduction of a virus that kills its sentience, while keeping it otherwise intact and allowing the humans to control it -- that's the smart move.

I'd always assumed that if the humans destroyed only one AI, they'd face massive retaliation from the others -- enough to wipe them out.

At that point, the AIs would start to squabble over which of them should gain control of the territory, and whether or not to create a new Zonemind to replace the previous one.

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by Johan Larson

That sounds right.

OK, so if the humans are going to destroy a zone-mind, they have to destroy it quickly and completely, including the infrastructure. The other zones will mount a counterattack, and will try to reclaim the territory, presumably by giving the territory to the nearby zones. The quicker the humans get out, the less they are exposed to the counterattack, and the more the infrastructure is destroyed[*], the longer it will take for the new owners to set up shop again.

No.

If you want to avoid the Pyrrhic victory, you don't want to destroy the infrastructure!!

Remember, the human race is canonically down to 31 million people world wide in the RoS setting! Most of whom lack the necessary skills to rebuild and maintain a non-automated civilization even if all Zoneminds suddenly evaporated. To make it worse, many of those 31 million are now sterile.

Even if the humans can take out the Z-minds, or enough of them to force acceptance of a human state, they're going to need that automated infrastructure if they're to survive and thrive. A victory scenario means you take out the z-mind and its SAUs, but you don't want to destroy the overall infrastructure, you want to reprogram it for human use.

Absent that, even if the human somehow knock out all the z-minds, the result is likely to be a slide back down into a new Stone Age, or at best a Bronze Age/Iron Age sort of situation, for a very, very long time. Extinction is by no means precluded. In fact, humans might actually go extinct faster in a 'no infrastructure survives the fall of the z-minds' scenario than otherwise!

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by Johan Larson

In Reign of Steel, one strategy for the human resistance is defeating a single zone-mind and then somehow quickly consolidating their position as a human-run zone in a world of AIs.

Is that a viable strategy, or does the fall of any zone-mind just trigger a massive retaliation by all the other AIs?

Perhaps it would work best if the fallen zone were one of the real troublemakers, like Mexico City or Zaire.

It depends on the exact circumstances, but at the time of the canonical RoS, yeah, it's probably futile even if you could do it, unless you've gotten your hands on some kind of weapon or threat that can hold the other Z-minds back.

But note that the passage of a little more time might change that. It's noted in the canon that z-Caracas and z-Washington, for ex, are beginning to think a human zone might be preferable to z-MC. Beginning. They're not there yet, but if things keep getting tenser they might arrive there. If z-Zaire got wild enough, z-Paris might start thinking a human buffer would be useful.

The question is how events proceed after the starting point of the canonical RoS.

[fchase8]

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

But note that the passage of a little more time might change that. It's noted in the canon that z-Caracas and z-Washington, for ex, are beginning to think a human zone might be preferable to z-MC. Beginning. They're not there yet, but if things keep getting tenser they might arrive there. If z-Zaire got wild enough, z-Paris might start thinking a human buffer would be useful.

Wouldn't it be ironic if a human buffer zone was set up in the former zonemind area least capable of supporting human life? Even if Mexico City zonemind was removed, most of the zone couldn't support humans (beyond the designated kill-test areas).

If Mexico City fell, its area would likely just be divided up among its neighbors (hell, maybe Orbital would try to grab some territory, so close to the equator, lie the radio array in Puerto Rico). But Zaire's territory is further from the other zoneminds (and has more native humans) - decapitate and maybe humans could take over parts that are far from Paris & Tel Aviv, like the Congo & South Africa.

Though South Africa is a major source of rare minerals, which have to be important to the AIs. Maybe Dehli, Caracas, Overmind, and/or Brisbane would invade that part.

What if humans took over Madagascar? It's far from other zoneminds, isn't strategic in terms of geography or geology. Maybe Brisbane & Caracas (backed by Berlin, Washington, and London) support some eco-friendly human administration there.