Archers and Mages Attacking Every Turn (DF)

[LateCustomer]

Has anyone tried running or playing in a (basically) dungeon fantasy game where archers are allowed to shoot an arrow and casters could cast combat spells every turn by default? If so, what were the results? Was it fun? Overpowering? I'm just looking for general experiences and thoughts on the matter.

Thanks.

[evileeyore]

In DF Archers can fire every turn. And Wizards are every other turn so that's not too bad...




But I allow for PCs in my game to trade out attacks for Concentration. It worked fine.

[LateCustomer]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

In DF Archers can fire every turn. And Wizards are every other turn so that's not too bad...




But I allow for PCs in my game to trade out attacks for Concentration. It worked fine.

Thanks, man.

[Maz]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

In DF Archers can fire every turn.

Well not exactly. I think LateCustomer was more thinking of a rules change.

In DF Archers can - with the right advantages and skills, and a high skill, at a penalty - fire every turn.


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As for wizards you can deal direct damage each turn. Just get Jet-spells. But then you have to get in close...which is only fair.

[Anaraxes]

In DF, Archers are pretty much certain to have those advantages and skills. It's what they do. It's like pointing out that Knights have Combat Reflexes and High Pain Threshold and high weapon skills.

The real question for the (apparently) proposed houserule is the effect it has on all the casual archers. Not the specialists in that niche, but the Knights or Swashbucklers or mages that just carry a bow because there's always some point where a ranged weapon comes in handy. Do you want to make them as effective as that highly skilled Heroic Archer for free? If so, do you add even more benefits to Heroic Archer to keep it worth the CP cost, or just drop it (and the other skills like Fast-Draw that lead to firing each round)?

Once ranged weapon expertise becomes easy and popular, what do you do about the melee niches and their lessened effectiveness and impact in game? Buff them, like the Heroic Archer?

If you're one of the rules-create-the-world simulationists, then what do the mass armies now have to look like? Bows are easy to master and have an even higher rate of fire, so Agincourt will be the routine, expected, result, not a surprising one-off. But if knights aren't useful in combat, that's going to have ripple effects all the way into your pseudo-medieval society. But maybe that's okay if it's a pure dungeon crawling game where the "town" barely has a name and the world outside is irrelevant.

[PK]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

In DF Archers can fire every turn.

Well, specifically, archers with Heroic Archer can fire every turn, which is why this is a good investment for them. I wouldn't just change the rules to let archers fire every turn for no point cost or penalty! That would overvalue bows compared to other weapons.

That said, I use the Instant Shot technique instead of the more complex rules for Heroic Archer, and I'll let even non-cinematic archers use it and buy it off, assuming they meet the harsh prerequisites. After all, the 9 points it costs to max out is about half what Heroic Archer costs, and gives about half of that advantage's benefits.

And Wizards are every other turn so that's not too bad...

Right, and I wouldn't change this. A properly spec'ed wizard can toss a 3d missile (or 3d-3 impaling missile) every other turn, which is far more damaging than anything a typical archer can do! We've played with allowing Compartmentalized Mind, but in the end most of us (as GMs) restrict it to NPCs only, since it's a ridiculously easy way to build "boss monster" spellcasters.

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by PK

Right, and I wouldn't change this. A properly spec'ed wizard can toss a 3d missile (or 3d-3 impaling missile) every other turn, which is far more damaging than anything a typical archer can do! We've played with allowing Compartmentalized Mind, but in the end most of us (as GMs) restrict it to NPCs only, since it's a ridiculously easy way to build "boss monster" spellcasters.

Having read this thread an interesting idea that popped into my head is to allow new variant Missile spells which top out at 1d or maybe 2d, energy cost cannot be reduced (or base energy cost is very high, so reductions still cost at least 1FP), and casting time is instant (a specific exemption to the minimum casting time rule).

Kromm also used to have some variant missile spells on his website that allowed mages to fire multiple projectiles in a single casting. So instead firing 1 fireball in a one second casting you could fire up to 12d divided between multiple missiles (so 2x6d, or 3x4d, etc). I'm not sure I'd allow that one, but it's an idea.


As for Archers, as others have said with Heroic Archer, Fast-Draw, and a few archery perks an Archer can be very deadly (throw Strongbow into the mix, in addition to what's already been mentioned). If you allow Dual Weapon Attack (Bow) they can even get off two arrows per turn on the same or adjacent targets. That's plenty deadly enough.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

Having read this thread an interesting idea that popped into my head is to allow new variant Missile spells which top out at 1d or maybe 2d, energy cost cannot be reduced (or base energy cost is very high, so reductions still cost at least 1FP), and casting time is instant (a specific exemption to the minimum casting time rule).

There's also a power that lets you blast people every turn as well. I believe it's in Power-Ups.

But in any case, I think someone who demands that a wizard get to blast stuff every turn is... so missing the point of a wizard, in my opinion. I played a wizard, and I certainly do remember spending a few turns building up an ice dagger only to miss, while in the same amount of time, the swashbuckler was carving through a dozen baddies. But I also remember taking time to summon a major demon who powered through the dungeon with, flash-freezing the floor so utterly change the circumstances of battle, and outwitting a satyr and his mind control with my own mind magic.

A wizard is not an artillery platform, he's a game-changer. He's that in D&D too, by the way: In 4e, he was classed a "controller," not a "striker," and that seems right to me. A wizard isn't blasting stuff over and over with fireballs, he's casting sleep spells, or summons, or some other crazy, vast trick that rewrites the battlefield in favor of his allies. That's even more true in DF, in my experience.

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

But in any case, I think someone who demands that a wizard get to blast stuff every turn is... so missing the point of a wizard, in my opinion.

Well, yes and no. I do agree that a Mage can be so much more useful and versatile, if he's built and played that way. But some people just want an artillery cannon mage, and the only thing wrong with that is that GURPS doesn't really allow you to power-up in that direction very well the same way that other "classes" can.

[DocRailgun]

All spellcasting classes can do all these things in 5th edition D&D - every class has a ranged cantrip that does about as much damage as a bow or a melee weapon does and can cast it every player turn. What's more, anyone who wants to play a High Elf can get a cantrip like that (100' range, d10 damage), or anyone who wants to spend a feat at level 4, 8, 12, 16, and so on. Even fighters and rogues can get in on the act at 3rd level (Eldritch Knights or Arcane Tricksters, respectively).
Luckily, in 5th edition D&D other classes scale up nicely with spellcasting classes.

Originally Posted by Mailanka

A wizard is not an artillery platform, he's a game-changer. He's that in D&D too, by the way: In 4e, he was classed a "controller," not a "striker," and that seems right to me. A wizard isn't blasting stuff over and over with fireballs, he's casting sleep spells, or summons, or some other crazy, vast trick that rewrites the battlefield in favor of his allies. That's even more true in DF, in my experience.