Alternative? Morph

[RogerWilco]

... And I have another Morph thread.

Would a Morph that replaces all your physical (dis)advantages and your stats with the ones on the (racial) template be any different from how it's defined in Basic?
Basically it would make everyone have their own "racial template" instead of having, for example, all humans share the same racial template.

I'm looking for something where you can just take the stats from an animal or monster, say for example a Tiger, and then not have to make a lot of adjustments afterwards for things like personal ST, DX, Per, etc.

It's the difference between morphing from a strong "Human" with ST 10+4 into a strong Elephant with ST 28+4, or from a "Strong Human ST 14" into a normal Elephant with ST 28.

In other words the whole "racial template" thing in Morph replaced with something more like a "physical template".

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by RogerWilco

Would a Morph that replaces all your physical (dis)advantages and your stats with the ones on the (racial) template be any different from how it's defined in Basic?.

I wouldn't allow that. Notionally I suppose it is no more broken than Morph is in general, but the racial templates only limitation is *important*. Without it, you are essentially turning anything you can define as physical into a Modular Ability pool, and one you can make as big as you want by adding additional disadvantages at that. If you want that, buy it as a form of Modular Abilities, not Morph.

[RogerWilco]

Originally Posted by malloyd

I wouldn't allow that. Notionally I suppose it is no more broken than Morph is in general, but the racial templates only limitation is *important*. Without it, you are essentially turning anything you can define as physical into a Modular Ability pool, and one you can make as big as you want by adding additional disadvantages at that. If you want that, buy it as a form of Modular Abilities, not Morph.

I don't think that's exactly what I was suggesting. What you turn into would still be limited by defined racial templates.

Let me do an example. Take the House Cat B456.

ST4;DX14;IQ4;HT10.
Will 11; Per 12; Speed 6; Dodge 10;Move 10.
Traits: Catfall; Combat Reflexes; Domestic Animal; Night Vision 5; Quadruped; Sharp Claws; Sharp Teeth.
Skills: Brawling-16; Jumping-14; Stealth-14.

Let's say we have Bill the Fighter (ST14;DX12;IQ10;HT12) and Jake the Wizard (ST8;DX10;IQ14;HT10).

I'm ignoring the possibility of higher IQ and without things like Bestial for the sake of this example.

With standard rules they would become:
Bill the Cat (ST8;DX16;IQ4;HT12) and Jake the Cat (ST2;DX14;IQ8;HT10) with lot's of mathematical adjustments to HP, Will, Per, FP, skills, etc. Bill will be a very strong and nimble cat, while Jake will be a weak and intelligent one. In both cases the template will be -82 points.
I think this is a lot of work and can result in unrealistic cats who can carry horses.

In my proposal both would end up as a cat with ST4;DX14;IQ4;HT10. Now this would be -182 points for Bill and -142 points for Jake. Bill would be able to transform into 40 point more powerful forms than Jake, but if they both pick the same form, they would have the same physical abilities.

[naloth]

I wouldn't let you cash in on your existing attributes as though they are part of your Morph pool to take on a more expensive form. Either take them as pool points or keep your relative attributes. If you have Improvised Forms (enhancement to Morph from Powers), you could just spend unused pool points in any way you want as long as it's part of some template on some form you know anyway.

I have used something very similar under a different context and it worked pretty well. My test case was a Supers game where you could "morph" into other supers treating each Supers powers that power modifier as a racial template. Morph itself could (and usually was) be limited to a single power modifier. If it did powers only (not appearance), add flawed.

In a larger context, I'd find it reasonable to enhance morph to duplicate attributes, advantages, and disadvantages of a particular person so that you could morph into an athlete and have the same potential (not skills) as if you transformed into an animal with different stats. That's probably worth +20% which can be offset if you can't change into other races (about -20% for staying in a humaniod shape). Furthermore, unless you have improved forms, it's still a package deal (with a similar caveat for mental disad and low IQ).

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by RogerWilco

... And I have another Morph thread.

Would a Morph that replaces all your physical (dis)advantages and your stats with the ones on the (racial) template be any different from how it's defined in Basic?
Basically it would make everyone have their own "racial template" instead of having, for example, all humans share the same racial template.

I'm looking for something where you can just take the stats from an animal or monster, say for example a Tiger, and then not have to make a lot of adjustments afterwards for things like personal ST, DX, Per, etc.

It's the difference between morphing from a strong "Human" with ST 10+4 into a strong Elephant with ST 28+4, or from a "Strong Human ST 14" into a normal Elephant with ST 28.

In other words the whole "racial template" thing in Morph replaced with something more like a "physical template".

It would just be a Cosmic "Ignore personal modifiers" +50% or something. If I'd allow it, I'd go this route, because the first thing I can imagine someone doing is taking the advantage, taking a whole bunch of negative traits, and then morphing into the first human they can touch. Free points! So I probably wouldn't allow it.

I've noticed a trend in your posts. They sound less like someone who is trying to understand Morph, and more like someone who has a specific problem he's trying to address. If I'm correct, why don't you just explain what your problem is? Perhaps we can help you better build your character, or point you to a more specific solution. Often, I find I'm using the wrong tools for the job, or I'm making a bad assumption, and I don't realize it until I lay my cards on the table for others to see.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

I've noticed a trend in your posts. They sound less like someone who is trying to understand Morph, and more like someone who has a specific problem he's trying to address. If I'm correct, why don't you just explain what your problem is? Perhaps we can help you better build your character, or point you to a more specific solution. Often, I find I'm using the wrong tools for the job, or I'm making a bad assumption, and I don't realize it until I lay my cards on the table for others to see.

What he said :)
And the D&D reference isn't doing some of us any good as not everyone is familiar with the material.
Justr say as specifically as you can what your trying to do, including limitations you want to carry over.
However remember convert the idea not the mechanics when possible.

[RogerWilco]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

It would just be a Cosmic "Ignore personal modifiers" +50% or something. If I'd allow it, I'd go this route, because the first thing I can imagine someone doing is taking the advantage, taking a whole bunch of negative traits, and then morphing into the first human they can touch. Free points! So I probably wouldn't allow it.

They would not be able to morph into a Human, unless they had a large enough Morph pool to cover the difference. Human would not be 0 points if your physical template was less than standard Human. A Human with ST 8 DX 8 would have a physical template worth 60 points less than average Human. He would be the equivalent of a race/species with a racial template of -60 for normal Morph and need a pool of 60 to turn into a Human.
No free points.

Originally Posted by Mailanka

I've noticed a trend in your posts. They sound less like someone who is trying to understand Morph, and more like someone who has a specific problem he's trying to address. If I'm correct, why don't you just explain what your problem is? Perhaps we can help you better build your character, or point you to a more specific solution. Often, I find I'm using the wrong tools for the job, or I'm making a bad assumption, and I don't realize it until I lay my cards on the table for others to see.

I've played all kinds of shapeshifters in various different systems. I just like shapeshifters. So now I'm looking what can be done with GURPS as that's what the new group I've joined is using.
Morph, Alternative Form, Modular Abilities, Alternative Abilities and the various ways of mixing and matching them seem to be the technical mechanics used to model various forms of shapeshifting in GURPS.
I'm not trying to make a specific character, as the current adventure is in a setting that is more mundane than supernatural/magical.
I was trying to make a shapeshifter initially, before I got the details of the setting, and I'm still experimenting with what can be done with GURPS and various shapeshifting concepts. It's not unlikely that the next adventure, set in some kind of space opera setting, will allow a shapeshifting character. In the mean time I'm just trying to understand the various ways you can represent shapeshifters in GURPS, not build a specific one.

Originally Posted by Refplace

What he said :)
And the D&D reference isn't doing some of us any good as not everyone is familiar with the material.

There is no D&D reference here? There is in another thread I posted and there I provided a link. I'm not specifically working from a D&D background, although it sometimes provides an easy link, as a lot of that material is online in a precisely worded description.
The abilities of Marian Manhunter, Zam Wessell, Maya, T-1000, Sirius Black, Odo, Martia, Mystique or Beast Boy are often less defined, or only in a paper copy I have on my shelves.

Originally Posted by Refplace

Justr say as specifically as you can what your trying to do, including limitations you want to carry over.
However remember convert the idea not the mechanics when possible.

In this thread I'm trying to think of an alternative to Morph that when morphing into a House Cat, it turns you into the one described on page 456 and only that one, if that's what House Cats look like in your setting, independent of if you're a Human with ST 30 or ST 6 (or Elf, Dragon...).

I found this an interesting alternative way to define a morph type power for two reasons:
- It saves some calculations. You can just use the House Cat values as stated. On complex creatures it can save quite a bit of calculations.
- It prevents shifting into House Cats that can drag around 500+ lb, unless you have Improvized Forms. Or one with 0 ST. Which could be weird depending on the setting.

There didn't seem an existing way in the Basic books to do this.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by RogerWilco

I found this an interesting alternative way to define a morph type power for two reasons:
- It saves some calculations. You can just use the House Cat values as stated. On complex creatures it can save quite a bit of calculations.
- It prevents shifting into House Cats that can drag around 500+ lb, unless you have Improvized Forms. Or one with 0 ST. Which could be weird depending on the setting.

There didn't seem an existing way in the Basic books to do this.

1) I am pretty sure you do not have to use your full "Morph Points Pool" or whatever it is called. So long as you won't be going over what you're allowed, you can morph into something worse less than the maximum template you're allowed to duplicate, including not scaling up attributes. It is just rare to settle for less...

2) ...if something sounds odd, consider whether or not the GM is supposed to be competent enough to just tell you "No.". If you read up on the various animal templates in Basic, most animals have a much smaller range for attributes than humans do. If the form is supposed to restrict what you can do, then the GM should simply tell you "Nope; you can copy a housecat but you can't make it superhumanly... er... super house cat-ly strong."

But Shapeshisfting is not a realistic thing and in many settings it makes total sense that yes, your shapeshifter can ignore the true limits of the animals physiology because that is just how your powers work, same way you are allowed to keep your intelligence that far exceeds what a brain of that size and configuration ought to accomplish.

3) Actually there are a lot of Advantages used by characters that are comic book shapeshifters but which are not built into Morph. A pretty classic example is Stretching. If you don't need the racial template to have it in order to stretch, buy Stretching. Then your shapeshifter can "morph" (lower case "m" because I am using it as a verb like in said comic books) your arm into a longer shape. I think there is an enhancement to allow you to transplant features from different memorized forms, but if you want to make the math easy? Be prepared to spend a lot of points but just buy everything with the Switchable Enhancement with the Special Effect "Learned how to morph into this regardless of current Racial Template." Then you can always sprout Gills, Claws, Wings, whatever.

[RogerWilco]

You seem to have totally missed the point I'm trying to make.

Originally Posted by Otaku

1) I am pretty sure you do not have to use your full "Morph Points Pool" or whatever it is called. So long as you won't be going over what you're allowed, you can morph into something worse less than the maximum template you're allowed to duplicate, including not scaling up attributes. It is just rare to settle for less...

I'm not even sure what you mean by this, except explaining what Morph does?

Originally Posted by Otaku

2) ...if something sounds odd, consider whether or not the GM is supposed to be competent enough to just tell you "No.". If you read up on the various animal templates in Basic, most animals have a much smaller range for attributes than humans do. If the form is supposed to restrict what you can do, then the GM should simply tell you "Nope; you can copy a housecat but you can't make it superhumanly... er... super house cat-ly strong."

But with this alternative you don't need GM intervention. All House Cats will have ST 4. All Polar Bears will have ST 20.
It makes the math a lot simpler too.

Originally Posted by Otaku

But Shapeshisfting is not a realistic thing and in many settings it makes total sense that yes, your shapeshifter can ignore the true limits of the animals physiology because that is just how your powers work, same way you are allowed to keep your intelligence that far exceeds what a brain of that size and configuration ought to accomplish.

But what if I want a setting where House Cats have ST 4? I'm looking for a variant/alternative, where if you shapeshift into a House Cat, and have the points to do so, you become a typical House Cat.

Originally Posted by Otaku

3) Actually there are a lot of Advantages used by characters that are comic book shapeshifters but which are not built into Morph. A pretty classic example is Stretching. If you don't need the racial template to have it in order to stretch, buy Stretching. Then your shapeshifter can "morph" (lower case "m" because I am using it as a verb like in said comic books) your arm into a longer shape. I think there is an enhancement to allow you to transplant features from different memorized forms, but if you want to make the math easy? Be prepared to spend a lot of points but just buy everything with the Switchable Enhancement with the Special Effect "Learned how to morph into this regardless of current Racial Template." Then you can always sprout Gills, Claws, Wings, whatever.

Again, here I'm not sure what your point is? You seem to be describing some forms of Modular Ability and the Improvized Forms Enhancement to Morph?

[ericthered]

When I run morph I generally allow some of a players traits to count as part of their morph pool, especially strength. You should be able to transform into a bouncer or a butler, if you have the points for it, and it makes more sense for such forms to have their natural strength. I do limit such forms to 'wearing their traits on their sleeves'. If you want to boost your strength to 16 this way, you have to look like a hulking strongman. It can be argued though that these are still GM-built templates.

For me, you must specify whether a trait is part of a pool or not on character creation. If it is, you can NEVER gain its benefit except in your natural form or as part of a template. And while I'm generous about letting you make extra big wolves, I'm a stickler about making extra dexterous or extra intelligent ones.