How useful is Morph without a (big) pool?

RogerWilco · 01-08-2016, 11:33 AM

As most of my posts here, this one is again about Morph.

The more I look at it and Racial Templates in general, the more I think that it's usage is fairly limited without a big morph point pool. It leads me to two questions:

Have people used it without a pool of points? I understand it's useful as Morph(Cosmetic, Retains Shape) to do basically the same thing as Elastic Skin and Mimicry. I'm struggling to find uses that justify the 70 points that the full Morph costs more. This is partially based on my assumption that you want to omit racial mental disadvantages and negative racial IQ modifiers. With that assumption, the only Racial Template I've found so far that would be less than 0 points, is for a Guinea Pig. (http://panoptesv.com/RPGs/animalia/m...ricomorph.html)
What would you think the minimal size of a Morph pool need to be before it becomes useful? What would you consider the minimal cp value for a character with Morph to be feasable?

I find Morph to be in theory a very interesting ability, but I'm wondering how useful it really is. I might be restricted in my thinking by many years of D&D, where shapechange type abilities mostly didn't affect mental abilities. Maybe a Guinea Pig is more useful to a group than I can imagine?

Thanks.

Mailanka · 01-08-2016, 11:47 AM

So, once I created a DF race called "Machine Elves" who had the ability to manifest a single exotic or physical perk as a modular power. I was astonished by how useful it turned out to be: He always had a source of light if he needed it, he always had whatever tools that he needed (accessory), he even had a climbing line, or the necessary resistance to whatever specific disease or poison he was worried about. He couldn't have all of these things at once, but whatever he needed, he had.

Consider what you can do with a pool of 0 points. The book notes that cats, various birds, insects and wolves. I bet you could include serpents, fish, goats, squirrels, mice, etc. So what's the point of all that? Wolves can track by scent. Fish can swim. Birds can fly. Serpents can sting. Nobody notices a fly that has alighted on a wall and watches everything. Mice can crawl inside your walls.

A 0-point pool shapeshifter is a master at evading notice: He's a mouse in the walls, or just another horse in the barn, or another face in the crowd. They can get into wherever they want. They can travel great distances. They can manifest whatever useful trait they need for the moment that they need it.

I would argue the opposite of what you're arguing: The reason Morph is so expensive is that you get most of its utility the moment you buy it. The real power of shape-shifter characters isn't that they can hulk out and beat the hell out of everyone. It's that they have enormous flexibility and can be whatever they need to be at the moment they need it.

Bruno · 01-08-2016, 11:51 AM

If you refuse to take any racial templates without "buying off" IQ penalties and mental disadvantages, you don't have unlimited Morph - unlimited morph includes the ability to turn into a mouse/cat/rat/bird/whatever. If you insist on not using those forms, you have a limited version of the advantage that costs much less than 70 points.

RogerWilco · 01-08-2016, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Consider what you can do with a pool of 0 points. The book notes that cats, various birds, insects and wolves. I bet you could include serpents, fish, goats, squirrels, mice, etc. So what's the point of all that? Wolves can track by scent. Fish can swim. Birds can fly. Serpents can sting. Nobody notices a fly that has alighted on a wall and watches everything. Mice can crawl inside your walls.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruno

If you refuse to take any racial templates without "buying off" IQ penalties and mental disadvantages, you don't have unlimited Morph - unlimited morph includes the ability to turn into a mouse/cat/rat/bird/whatever. If you insist on not using those forms, you have a limited version of the advantage that costs much less than 70 points.

I'm struggling with how useful one can be with the IQ penalties and mental disadvantages.

I could be the proverbial fly on the wall, but with IQ 1, that's not going to get me anything, except possibly being swatted or caught by a spider.

I just can't really imagine being able to do something coherent and useful at an IQ well below 6.

I could be travelling on a boat to the City of Zorg and the ship could sink in a storm. I could then turn into a herring to prevent myself from drowning. But as a herring I would have no concept of the City of Zorg, boats, etc. I'd probably try to join a school and try to avoid getting eaten as pure instinct takes over.

I could turn into a bird, but I would have no clue where I'm going with Geography at IQ-6, possibly not even use it, as it's a technological skill.

And even if I can form anything resembling a coherent thought, like "Right, I turned into a mouse to try and crawl through the wall, let's do that". You'll be very vulnerable and unable to comprehend a lot of the dangers facing you. I'm thinking a scenario like this: http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...7&postcount=10

I could see turning into a wolf to maybe be useful to track "Odo the Thief" by scent. I'm not sure an IQ 4 wolf version of me would not prefer chasing rabbits.

ericthered · 01-08-2016, 12:45 PM

I think one of his main issues is that he's looking at various animals and finding that they have positive templates if you don't count low IQ, bestial, ect.

This is particularly true when MOST animal templates out there boost DX.

Mailanka · 01-08-2016, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RogerWilco

I'm struggling with how useful one can be with the IQ penalties and mental disadvantages.

I could be the proverbial fly on the wall, but with IQ 1, that's not going to get me anything, except possibly being swatted or caught by a spider.

I just can't really imagine being able to do something coherent and useful at an IQ well below 6.

I could be travelling on a boat to the City of Zorg and the ship could sink in a storm. I could then turn into a herring to prevent myself from drowning. But as a herring I would have no concept of the City of Zorg, boats, etc. I'd probably try to join a school and try to avoid getting eaten as pure instinct takes over.

I could turn into a bird, but I would have no clue where I'm going with Geography at IQ-6, possibly not even use it, as it's a technological skill.

And even if I can form anything resembling a coherent thought, like "Right, I turned into a mouse to try and crawl through the wall, let's do that". You'll be very vulnerable and unable to comprehend a lot of the dangers facing you. I'm thinking a scenario like this: http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...7&postcount=10

I could see turning into a wolf to maybe be useful to track "Odo the Thief" by scent. I'm not sure an IQ 4 wolf version of me would not prefer chasing rabbits.

I think you're borrowing trouble. Having animalistic IQ doesn't mean you suddenly forget everything you're doing and the GM can whack you with the stupid-stick. Even low IQ animals are pretty clever, they just tend to suck at programming computers or reciting ancient histories.

EDIT: As for that story, sure, you have disadvantages. You're not turning into a dragon, you're turning into a mouse. And also, if you want to be a dragon, just starting off as a dragon is cheaper than buying morph up to the point where you can turn into a dragon, so the point of morph is its flexibility. Turning into a mouse has its risks, and the fact that cats can now kill you is one of them. But like my machine elf, you're trying to leverage a small edge into a large advantage, and that can be done if you are clever, but when things go wrong, they'll go very wrong.

That story is not a story about the perils of low IQ, but low HP.

Otaku · 01-08-2016, 01:41 PM

I think we need to consider a few things:

1) The restrictions on the presented "alternative"
2) The setting
3) The underlying PC
4) The player
5) The rest of the group

Make sure you talk to the GM thoroughly before taking Morph; if it really is not as useful as Elastic Skin and Mimicry then for that specific campaign the price ought to be adjusted. Since you can become other humans regardless of how big or small they are, so long as you had a chance to memorize them, Morph at full price gives you a lot of wiggle room. Still overpriced, but this is intentionally ignoring the other stuff you can do with full priced Morph. I just wanted to point out that someone with Elastic Skin and Mimicry should have trouble impersonating someone significantly shorter, taller, fatter, etc. than someone with Morph.

Most of the time I am guessing that is not the case. Talk to the GM to see what is available to you in the setting without slapping on an Unusual Background or needing a certain skill (like Zoology) to justify knowing about the template in question and that your character ought to have sought it out. In a pseudo-medieval/fantasy setting you might have some PC races that, while not as impressive as the more expensive ones still have some useful tricks to them, while in a modern setting you shouldn't need an Unusual Background or certain Skills to justify your character having a few less common animals.

Make sure your PC isn't just his Morph trait. Unless I am totally misunderstanding how Morph works, when you become a wolf you replace your own racial template with that of a wolf. So a human with Morph has IQ+0 as part of his racial template and a small boar has IQ-5. A normal human with IQ 10 is going to morph into a normal small boar with IQ 5, but a human with IQ 11 gets to be a small boar with IQ 6 and a human with IQ 12 gets to be a small boar with IQ 7. IQ 7 is still five less than IQ 12, but it is still above the threshold for "crippling" in the Basic Set (which is 6 or less).

If you still consider this "more points", you'll find this a common problem with a lot of traits. I mean an Innate Attack on a normal DX 10 person defaulting the Innate Attack skill off of DX 10 seems underwhelming. =P As the player you have to learn all the uses that justify 100 points even when you can't be all "I need to be strong and tough but don't need to be too smart right now; time to turn into an ogre!" like someone with a large pool of Morph Points to distribute.

When you do need to assume a form that is far less capable than a regular human being in some regard, remember that you shouldn't always be alone. Maybe as a dog you can't remember why you wanted to track down whomever this scent belongs to, but especially if one of the other PCs has a good animal handling skill they should be able to get you to trail it. Depending on specifics, Morph may be safer when someone in the group can help you end it in case you (in your new form) forget you can do that or just doesn't want to because "As a _____, why would I want to stop being a _____?"

RogerWilco · 01-08-2016, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericthered

I think one of his main issues is that he's looking at various animals and finding that they have positive templates if you don't count low IQ, bestial, ect.

This is particularly true when MOST animal templates out there boost DX.

I've only found one, for a Guinea Pig. All others I've found require positive points if you want to compensate the mental abilities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mailanka

I think you're borrowing trouble. Having animalistic IQ doesn't mean you suddenly forget everything you're doing and the GM can whack you with the stupid-stick. Even low IQ animals are pretty clever, they just tend to suck at programming computers or reciting ancient histories.

While I agree that even C.Elegans with 302 neurons has some intelligence, I don't think most animals are that intelligent. They're all below IQ 6. IQ 5 might be able to do something meaningful, IQ 4 probably only if domesticated and trained, I don't expect much at IQ 3 and lower but mostly instinctive behaviour.

It doesn't mean a wolf or horse doesn't have a concept of pack or herd and would understand the fellow PCs as such and would stay with them and maybe even protect them. They would not follow commands or allow someone to ride them. I do think that IQ 4 and lower would not be able to understand the danger of (ranged) weapons and many other things. IQ 5 might to some degree.

But that's my understanding of how these low IQs should be interpreted and role-played. I'm open to arguments as to why I might be wrong. I do agree that there is quite a big range even within the same IQ level: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6ioGb8IQlI

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mailanka

EDIT: As for that story, sure, you have disadvantages. You're not turning into a dragon, you're turning into a mouse. And also, if you want to be a dragon, just starting off as a dragon is cheaper than buying morph up to the point where you can turn into a dragon, so the point of morph is its flexibility. Turning into a mouse has its risks, and the fact that cats can now kill you is one of them. But like my machine elf, you're trying to leverage a small edge into a large advantage, and that can be done if you are clever, but when things go wrong, they'll go very wrong.

That story is not a story about the perils of low IQ, but low HP.

I'd argue both.

I think your machine elf has a much easier choice than a person with Morph. They don't get sometimes hundreds of points of disadvantages lumped in with whatever advantage they're seeking.

Morph is a lot cheaper than getting some of the advantages through something like Physical Cosmic Modular Abilities. Getting Winged Flight that way would be 600 points. Morph gives it for 100, but gives you 200-300 points of disadvantages lumped in with it (Falcon B457, why don't they give point totals for the templates there, I think it's -73 cp with 270 cp of disads?).

I'm just not overjoyed at the possibility of facing a few hundred points of, possibly quite lethal, disadvantages each time I use my ability.

Now either those -270 disadvantages aren't worth their points, or the GM will use them against me. I don't expect to live long, if I regularly change into creatures like that.

RogerWilco · 01-08-2016, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mailanka

I would argue the opposite of what you're arguing: The reason Morph is so expensive is that you get most of its utility the moment you buy it. The real power of shape-shifter characters isn't that they can hulk out and beat the hell out of everyone. It's that they have enormous flexibility and can be whatever they need to be at the moment they need it.

I think Morph puts quite a limit on that. You have to see or touch what you want to turn into, unless you've memorized it.

If you need to turn into a mouse to crawl into the walls, but haven't memorized the shape and can't spot one, then you can't. The whole system functions a bit like Vancian magic, in that you have to "prepare" the "spells" you want to be able to use.

Edges · 01-08-2016, 03:52 PM

I think it's a cool idea that if you want to change into an awesome beast, you lose a little IQ for a while. And it isn't really that much IQ. For a little varmint like a bat, owl, squirrel, crow, small dog, rabbit, etc., I don't see the need to reduce IQ. No Fine Manipulators, Doesn't Speak, and Horizontal is -55 points. Add reduced ST from size, and you tend to have plenty of points. Medium sized things like wolves or super fast things like house cats and falcons can probably be fine with lowering the morpher's IQ by 1. Big things like lions and tigers and bears might need to lower IQ by 2 or 3 and/or add Bestial. Sounds like good role-playing opportunities to me. And don't forget to not give away free mental advantages just because they're on a template (Combat Reflexes, I'm looking at you).

01-08-2016, 11:33 AM	#1
RogerWilco Join Date: Dec 2015 Location: Orion Arm of the Milky Way	How useful is Morph without a (big) pool? As most of my posts here, this one is again about Morph. The more I look at it and Racial Templates in general, the more I think that it's usage is fairly limited without a big morph point pool. It leads me to two questions: Have people used it without a pool of points? I understand it's useful as Morph(Cosmetic, Retains Shape) to do basically the same thing as Elastic Skin and Mimicry. I'm struggling to find uses that justify the 70 points that the full Morph costs more. This is partially based on my assumption that you want to omit racial mental disadvantages and negative racial IQ modifiers. With that assumption, the only Racial Template I've found so far that would be less than 0 points, is for a Guinea Pig. (http://panoptesv.com/RPGs/animalia/m...ricomorph.html) What would you think the minimal size of a Morph pool need to be before it becomes useful? What would you consider the minimal cp value for a character with Morph to be feasable? I find Morph to be in theory a very interesting ability, but I'm wondering how useful it really is. I might be restricted in my thinking by many years of D&D, where shapechange type abilities mostly didn't affect mental abilities. Maybe a Guinea Pig is more useful to a group than I can imagine? Thanks. Last edited by RogerWilco; 01-08-2016 at 11:40 AM.

01-08-2016, 11:47 AM	#2
Mailanka Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Eindhoven, the Netherlands	Re: How useful is Morph without a (big) pool? So, once I created a DF race called "Machine Elves" who had the ability to manifest a single exotic or physical perk as a modular power. I was astonished by how useful it turned out to be: He always had a source of light if he needed it, he always had whatever tools that he needed (accessory), he even had a climbing line, or the necessary resistance to whatever specific disease or poison he was worried about. He couldn't have all of these things at once, but whatever he needed, he had. Consider what you can do with a pool of 0 points. The book notes that cats, various birds, insects and wolves. I bet you could include serpents, fish, goats, squirrels, mice, etc. So what's the point of all that? Wolves can track by scent. Fish can swim. Birds can fly. Serpents can sting. Nobody notices a fly that has alighted on a wall and watches everything. Mice can crawl inside your walls. A 0-point pool shapeshifter is a master at evading notice: He's a mouse in the walls, or just another horse in the barn, or another face in the crowd. They can get into wherever they want. They can travel great distances. They can manifest whatever useful trait they need for the moment that they need it. I would argue the opposite of what you're arguing: The reason Morph is so expensive is that you get most of its utility the moment you buy it. The real power of shape-shifter characters isn't that they can hulk out and beat the hell out of everyone. It's that they have enormous flexibility and can be whatever they need to be at the moment they need it. __________________ My Blog: Mailanka's Musing. Currently Playing: Psi-Wars, a step-by-step exploration of building your own Space Opera setting, inspired by Star Wars.

01-08-2016, 11:51 AM	#3
Bruno Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Canada	Re: How useful is Morph without a (big) pool? If you refuse to take any racial templates without "buying off" IQ penalties and mental disadvantages, you don't have unlimited Morph - unlimited morph includes the ability to turn into a mouse/cat/rat/bird/whatever. If you insist on not using those forms, you have a limited version of the advantage that costs much less than 70 points. __________________ All about Size Modifier; Unified Hit Location Table A Wiki for my F2F Group A neglected GURPS blog

01-08-2016, 12:45 PM	#5
ericthered Hero of Democracy Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: far from the ocean	Re: How useful is Morph without a (big) pool? I think one of his main issues is that he's looking at various animals and finding that they have positive templates if you don't count low IQ, bestial, ect. This is particularly true when MOST animal templates out there boost DX. __________________ Be helpful, not pedantic Worlds Beyond Earth -- my blog Check out the PbP forum! If you don't see a game you'd like, ask me about making one!

01-08-2016, 01:41 PM	#7
Otaku Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: South Dakota, USA	Re: How useful is Morph without a (big) pool? I think we need to consider a few things: 1) The restrictions on the presented "alternative" 2) The setting 3) The underlying PC 4) The player 5) The rest of the group Make sure you talk to the GM thoroughly before taking Morph; if it really is not as useful as Elastic Skin and Mimicry then for that specific campaign the price ought to be adjusted. Since you can become other humans regardless of how big or small they are, so long as you had a chance to memorize them, Morph at full price gives you a lot of wiggle room. Still overpriced, but this is intentionally ignoring the other stuff you can do with full priced Morph. I just wanted to point out that someone with Elastic Skin and Mimicry should have trouble impersonating someone significantly shorter, taller, fatter, etc. than someone with Morph. Most of the time I am guessing that is not the case. Talk to the GM to see what is available to you in the setting without slapping on an Unusual Background or needing a certain skill (like Zoology) to justify knowing about the template in question and that your character ought to have sought it out. In a pseudo-medieval/fantasy setting you might have some PC races that, while not as impressive as the more expensive ones still have some useful tricks to them, while in a modern setting you shouldn't need an Unusual Background or certain Skills to justify your character having a few less common animals. Make sure your PC isn't just his Morph trait. Unless I am totally misunderstanding how Morph works, when you become a wolf you replace your own racial template with that of a wolf. So a human with Morph has IQ+0 as part of his racial template and a small boar has IQ-5. A normal human with IQ 10 is going to morph into a normal small boar with IQ 5, but a human with IQ 11 gets to be a small boar with IQ 6 and a human with IQ 12 gets to be a small boar with IQ 7. IQ 7 is still five less than IQ 12, but it is still above the threshold for "crippling" in the Basic Set (which is 6 or less). If you still consider this "more points", you'll find this a common problem with a lot of traits. I mean an Innate Attack on a normal DX 10 person defaulting the Innate Attack skill off of DX 10 seems underwhelming. =P As the player you have to learn all the uses that justify 100 points even when you can't be all "I need to be strong and tough but don't need to be too smart right now; time to turn into an ogre!" like someone with a large pool of Morph Points to distribute. When you do need to assume a form that is far less capable than a regular human being in some regard, remember that you shouldn't always be alone. Maybe as a dog you can't remember why you wanted to track down whomever this scent belongs to, but especially if one of the other PCs has a good animal handling skill they should be able to get you to trail it. Depending on specifics, Morph may be safer when someone in the group can help you end it in case you (in your new form) forget you can do that or just doesn't want to because "As a _____, why would I want to stop being a _____?" __________________ My GURPS Fourth Edition library consists of Basic Set: Characters, Basic Set: Campaigns, Martial Arts, Powers, Powers: Enhanced Senses, Power-Ups 1: Imbuements, Power-Ups 2: Perks, Power-Ups 3: Talents, Power-Ups 4: Enhancements, Power-Ups 6: Quirks, Power-Ups 8: Limitations, Powers, Social Engineering, Supers, Template Toolkit 1: Characters, Template Toolkit 2: Races, one issue of Pyramid (3/83) a.k.a. Alternate GURPS IV, GURPS Classic Rogues, and GURPS Classic Warriors. Most of which was provided through the generosity of others. Thanks! :)

01-08-2016, 03:52 PM	#10
Edges Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: GMT-5	Re: How useful is Morph without a (big) pool? I think it's a cool idea that if you want to change into an awesome beast, you lose a little IQ for a while. And it isn't really that much IQ. For a little varmint like a bat, owl, squirrel, crow, small dog, rabbit, etc., I don't see the need to reduce IQ. No Fine Manipulators, Doesn't Speak, and Horizontal is -55 points. Add reduced ST from size, and you tend to have plenty of points. Medium sized things like wolves or super fast things like house cats and falcons can probably be fine with lowering the morpher's IQ by 1. Big things like lions and tigers and bears might need to lower IQ by 2 or 3 and/or add Bestial. Sounds like good role-playing opportunities to me. And don't forget to not give away free mental advantages just because they're on a template (Combat Reflexes, I'm looking at you).