[Poll] Mechanical Complexity of Dungeon Fantasy templates

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

I disagree. The Wizzie in my current game is out the gate dropping 2d missile spells freely and looking at 3d in a few game sessions.


Granted they'll plateau there for a good long while (they don't have to, but it's a bit expensive to get to 4d and there are more 'point efficient' but slower ways than dumping 20 points into one skill).

2d every 2 rounds (I know you can houserule the need for the attack maneuver after the concentrate maneuver, but I'm talking RAW), with mediocre skill that is affected by range penalties (by default, the wizard has Innate Attack at 14, if he picks up the skill instead of any other ranged weapon option) at some FP cost (unless he has enough skill to reach the next milestone, that is, skill 20) is not decent damage. A knight with ST 14, a sword, and no weapon master will be doing more damage each swing at no FP cost, and he could do so twice a turn with rapid strike, or thrice a turn with rapid strike and extra attack. A scout will throw 1d+2(2) pi arrows every turn with greater accuracy, and probably shoot 2 arrows each time.

Originally Posted by Rasputin

Sounds like the yellow robe in my game, albeit at a lower point total. It isn't tough to get a wizard lobbing 3d Blast Balls every few seconds.

And it's not not hard to have any combat worthy delver to toss around that much damage every turn.

The reason I don't recommend damage spells for wizards is simple, others do damage much better than you, at lesser costs. The usual outcome of a wizard spending a turn creating a missile spell, and then another turn throwing it is a miss or a dodge. Now the wizard is out of som FPs, while the target is unscathed. Psychic Guidance can help with the accuracy, but nothing short of compartmentalized mind will help you deal with the fact that you need to spend a turn creating the missile, and another throwing it (or casting the melee spell, and attacking with it)
There are damage spells that go around this, by using the resistance mechanic (Dehydrate and frostbyte are some examples of this), but by default, they still cost several turns worth of casting (but fortunately, you can reduce this with high skill, unlike missile, melee and jet spells), and anyway they require 1 FP per dice of damage and a resistance roll. For less FP, less turns, and the same resistance roll, you could have use Stun, and had one of the wizard's muscle bound friends deal the damage much more easily (thanks to the -4 to defenses and the inability to retreat from being stunned).

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

Kuroshima - you have any Mystic Swordsman thoughts?

I never had them in my table. True, one of the characters is a mystic knight-aristocrat (that is somehow like the swashbuckler), but he uses heavy armor and wields a two handed sword, nothing like the intended agile fighter with light weapon and imbuements. I would guess that the mystic swashbuckler would do well, BUT it needs an edged rapier or other swing capable weapon, and desperately needs more ST (not that the normal swashbuckler shouldn't aim for starting ST+striking ST=13). Imbuements are a force multiplier for ST damage, meaning that unless your ST damage is decent to high, they're not that cost effective. Also, unlike the mystic scout, who only cares on imbuing arrows with no concern for defensive imbuements, the mystic swashbuckler is going to be in the front line, and might use a buckler, so armor and shield imbuements still have value and they can't use them.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

2d every 2 rounds (I know you can houserule the need for the attack maneuver after the concentrate maneuver, but I'm talking RAW), with mediocre skill that is affected by range penalties (by default, the wizard has Innate Attack at 14, if he picks up the skill instead of any other ranged weapon option) at some FP cost (unless he has enough skill to reach the next milestone, that is, skill 20) is not decent damage.

Rightt... RAW. I have a few houserules that make Wizzies slightly better at missile combat:

A) Every 2 rounds: Sure. I forgot I use a house-rule on Concentrate letting PCs exchange a regular Attack for a Concentrate, so with AOA Double Wizzies (and any else with a Concentrate activated ability) can Concentrate and Attack in one turn. If the enemy is close (3 yards or less) the Wizard will sometimes chose this. Sometimes, as it does strip them of defenses.

B) I allow Attack Maneuvers to be spent to speed up Aiming. Make your Ranged combat skill check and you get 1 round of Aiming. So with the AOA Double going Concentrate+Aim, on the next turn they lob a missile with their Acc bonus or aim for another turn (or try to AOA Double to Aim once or twice more).

The above has helped the Wizard, however I suspect if I had a Scout or Martial Artist they'd be just as happy.

This is without spending FP, as skill 20 is trivial to hit for a starting Wizard.

And it's not not hard to have any combat worthy delver to toss around that much damage every turn.

This is true. The frontliners in my game are tossing 3d+3 and 4d+5 (both Barbarians).

Now the wizard is out of som FPs, while the target is unscathed.

The Wizard should never be down FPs from tossing out a few missile spells* unless they're going for a Hail Mary missile they've been pumping. In that case they should be dishing 10d+ and should take the time to Aim (or be dropping a 5d+ Explosive on someone's hex at +4 to hit).


* As I mentioned above, 20 is trivial to hit. If they can't hit 20 (because they're maintaining spells or don't think missile spells are worth their time), they should toss out harassing bolts (1d) here and there to assist if they aren't doing something more important.

But you're correct, the Wizards primary combat role should Support or Field Control, either via expensive buffs (Great Haste, Armor, Shield on a frontliner), or expensive Area Spells (Stench/Mystic Mist are battle winners, tactically placed Illusions can keep enemies busy away from your party), or they're pulling 'Everyman Duty' by carrying spells to replace a 'class' (Knowledge spells so a Sage is never necessary, Knowledge and Movement to replace a missing Thief, etc). But they aren't "combat useless", they should be using 'save or suck' spells on the enemy (as you mentioned), shielding their team versus 'save or suck' via Counterspelling**, employing Field Control spells, and plinking away with 'free' missile spells when there's nothing better to do.

Or use some house-rules (which I forgot I was doing) and let them contribute more 'D&Dishly".

** I use Peter Del Orto's house-ruled Counterspell (and his other spells) from here.

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Rightt... RAW. I have a few houserules that make Wizzies slightly better at missile combat:

I always try to avoid basing my posts here on my house rules, because I don't assume that people will have similar house rules to me. Nothing wrong with house rules, but they make your statements non-portable.

A) Every 2 rounds: Sure. I forgot I use a house-rule on Concentrate letting PCs exchange a regular Attack for a Concentrate, so with AOA Double Wizzies (and any else with a Concentrate activated ability) can Concentrate and Attack in one turn. If the enemy is close (3 yards or less) the Wizard will sometimes chose this. Sometimes, as it does strip them of defenses.

This is a major change. I foresee major problems with this, in the long run: A martial artist/wizard, with two extra attacks from chi powers, would be able to toss around 3 spells per turn? In fact, a martial artist with a single extra attack would be able to sacrifice that attack for a +5 to power blow on the other attack (since using 1 second of preparation results in the penalty droping from -10 to -5).

B) I allow Attack Maneuvers to be spent to speed up Aiming. Make your Ranged combat skill check and you get 1 round of Aiming. So with the AOA Double going Concentrate+Aim, on the next turn they lob a missile with their Acc bonus or aim for another turn (or try to AOA Double to Aim once or twice more).

So everybody gets gunslinger/heroic archer sans the extra options for free?

The above has helped the Wizard, however I suspect if I had a Scout or Martial Artist they'd be just as happy.

This is without spending FP, as skill 20 is trivial to hit for a starting Wizard.

Indeed, it's trivial for a wizard

This is true. The frontliners in my game are tossing 3d+3 and 4d+5 (both Barbarians).

Not only that, but frontliners can use rapid strike and/or extra attack to do this multiple times per turn. Several templates can get up to two extra attacks, for a total of up to 4 attacks without leaving the RAW. We can thus compare a 300 point knight dealing 2d+5 4 times a round (equivalent to 3d+1) with a wizard doing 3d every two turns. Neither spends FP (we can assume that the wizard has skill 25 and psychic guidance)

The Wizard should never be down FPs from tossing out a few missile spells* unless they're going for a Hail Mary missile they've been pumping. In that case they should be dishing 10d+ and should take the time to Aim (or be dropping a 5d+ Explosive on someone's hex at +4 to hit).

If you've got frontliners dealing that much damage as you state above (and barbarians are not that great at dishing damage, really, since, before Dungeon Denizens: Barbarians, they lack Weapon Master), then the foes either melt when touching the frontliners, or the "free" missile spells won't even scratch them.

* As I mentioned above, 20 is trivial to hit. If they can't hit 20 (because they're maintaining spells or don't think missile spells are worth their time), they should toss out harassing bolts (1d) here and there to assist if they aren't doing something more important.

But you're correct, the Wizards primary combat role should Support or Field Control, either via expensive buffs (Great Haste, Armor, Shield on a frontliner), or expensive Area Spells (Stench/Mystic Mist are battle winners, tactically placed Illusions can keep enemies busy away from your party), or they're pulling 'Everyman Duty' by carrying spells to replace a 'class' (Knowledge spells so a Sage is never necessary, Knowledge and Movement to replace a missing Thief, etc). But they aren't "combat useless", they should be using 'save or suck' spells on the enemy (as you mentioned), shielding their team versus 'save or suck' via Counterspelling**, employing Field Control spells, and plinking away with 'free' missile spells when there's nothing better to do.

Or use some house-rules (which I forgot I was doing) and let them contribute more 'D&Dishly".

** I use Peter Del Orto's house-ruled Counterspell (and his other spells) from here.

The sorcerer is an attempt at making "blaster wizards" viable. Of course, it sacrifices utility (it's IQ is rather low for a spellcaster) to do so.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

So everybody gets gunslinger/heroic archer sans the extra options for free?

The Heroic Archer doesn't have to roll, and the rest of those 'extra options' are much more potent than this (for the Archer that is).