Pyramid #3/83: Alternate GURPS IV

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Kromm

FWIW, rethinking weapon damage and armor DR would be a separate article or three. The focus of mine was mostly to correct Basic Lift and encumbrance, rescaling ST to a level where you don't need three-figure values for living things. It's a partial patch with a narrow focus. Overhauling everything would take a few more pages than I was allocated. ;)

Well, I and at least one other person why Pointless Slaying was given a whopping 12-page preference in Pyramid. I mean, Pointless could be a standalone PDF/series, really, and it's sad if it was the reason between not getting the ST rehaul so much closer to perfection . . .

[Langy]

Originally Posted by Infornific

Strength (and plausibly ST) scales with animal mass. It's just not a one to one relationship - more like a 2^3 power relationship. The standard GURPS suggestion for ST fits this - base ST off of the cube root of weight which means that big creatures are stronger than small creatures but small creatures are stronger for their size. E.g., a human weighing 125 lbs has a ST of 10, a horse weighing 1,000 lbs has a ST of 20 - the horse is stronger but only 4x as strong in absolute terms despite having 8x the mass. I haven't read the log ST article but I'm guessing it follows the same guidelines.

The one thing that seems odd is that HP still seem to be based on a quadratic scale. I don't think you can cleanly map log ST to a GURPS damage system.

Agreed with all of that, but Kromm recommended adjusting things so that the BL of a living creature is always 1/3 of its weight (humans have less ST because they have a focus upon fine manipulators rather than pure ST).

[Landwalker]

Originally Posted by Kromm

FWIW, rethinking weapon damage and armor DR would be a separate article or three. The focus of mine was mostly to correct Basic Lift and encumbrance, rescaling ST to a level where you don't need three-figure values for living things. It's a partial patch with a narrow focus. Overhauling everything would take a few more pages than I was allocated. ;)

Perfectly understandable—what the article sets out to do, I certainly think it does well (and I particularly like narrowing the gap between Thrust and Swing). It just didn't set out to do what I wanted it to set out to do. =P

I'll have to cross my fingers for it making an appearance in Alternate GURPS V!

[Kalzazz]

I am intrigued by the notion of making Thrust less weak compared to Swing, as I have seen quite a few swashbuckler sorts wielding edged rapiers who never, ever, thrust due to the Swing Dice + Weapon Master = Fun

I'm not so certain about the rest of the article (though I do like the idea that Basic Lift increases more rapidly, it does annoy me that each increase in basic lift is only .4 compared to previous increases in basic lift)

I may try to figure out a suitable 'buy in' cost for 'Thrust at Swing -2'. The impaling damage boost against certain targets and vitals targeting is nice, but there is still room for cutting swings to shine when hacking apart golems and things. Makes martial artists waaaay more scary for good or ill also

The Per for guns is something I am okay with, and have allowed with an Attribute Substitution perk without issue . . . . have however generally preferred (and still prefer) Will though.

WEG D6 Star Wars used Per in init . . . . hmmm, I wonder how well Per+DX+HT / 6 would work for init?

[GM Joe]

I finally got a moment to really look at the covert art from the last two Pyramid issues, and I love them both!

As to the question of whether I prefer a literal interpretation of the magazine contents or a thematic one, I enjoy both. I might choose 7 issues of 12 having literal interpretations on the cover, 5 thematic if those were the only choices and if I were the art director (heaven help us if that ever happens!).

Edited to add: Oh, and I would love to read a Pointless Action article someday.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Infornific

Strength (and plausibly ST) scales with animal mass. It's just not a one to one relationship - more like a 2^3 power relationship.

It's actually more like a 4/5 power relationship. A 2mm ant can lift around 40x its own weight, but a 2/3 power relationship would let it lift 1,000x its own weight.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Langy

Agreed with all of that, but Kromm recommended adjusting things so that the BL of a living creature is always 1/3 of its weight (humans have less ST because they have a focus upon fine manipulators rather than pure ST).

It's actually a bit more interesting that just that. It's also related to long term endurance and "efficient" muscles versus energy hungry explosive specialization like most other primates. There's also a few other unusual differences that may primarily have evolved for one reason but reduce effective strength as an "acceptable" drawback.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Infornific

Strength (and plausibly ST) scales with animal mass. It's just not a one to one relationship - more like a 2^3 power relationship. The standard GURPS suggestion for ST fits this - base ST off of the cube root of weight which means that big creatures are stronger than small creatures but small creatures are stronger for their size. E.g., a human weighing 125 lbs has a ST of 10, a horse weighing 1,000 lbs has a ST of 20 - the horse is stronger but only 4x as strong in absolute terms despite having 8x the mass. I haven't read the log ST article but I'm guessing it follows the same guidelines.

The one thing that seems odd is that HP still seem to be based on a quadratic scale. I don't think you can cleanly map log ST to a GURPS damage system.

The thing is that real world strength does scale rather nicely. But as mass changes much faster, extra strength aside from that required to move, which is what Gurps Strength measures, doesn't scale so nicely.

[Infornific]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

The thing is that real world strength does scale rather nicely. But as mass changes much faster, extra strength aside from that required to move, which is what Gurps Strength measures, doesn't scale so nicely.

If you look at weight lifting records, you'll find they scale pretty closely with a 2/3 power rule. So that at least would seem to match up to what GURPS ST measures. In addition, if GURPS ST is supposed to be excess ST it ought to increase at a slower rate relative to mass than the 2/3 power rate, not faster.

[Peaches]

I know that it says "physical feats involving Basic Lift (pp. B349-357) continue to work as written", so can I safely assume Extra Effort and Lifting skill still work as written under the revised ST rules?