Pyramid #3/83: Alternate GURPS IV

[Wavefunction]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

ST^3 / 50 also has the advantage of being a simple formula with no need to worry about tables.

Does match up armor lugging and walloping capacity more. With 82 basic lift you can have a weapon and DR 6 over most of the body (with maybe some DR 9 on key places and some DR 3 elsewhere to save weight)

A ST 16 guy swings a sword for average 10 damage, which is an annoying but not major hit to DR 6 and almost a ping to DR 9.

A ST 20 guy swings a sword for 13.5 . . . which is a major wound vs DR 6. But in this system ST 20 guy can easily tote DR 9, augmented in parts with DR 14. So hits will be between annoying and ping

Yeah, but part of the idea of the system is to restrict ST to 16 in order to bring it inline with things like DX and IQ, with ST 16 being the absolute most strength that anyone could possibly have for someone whose feats border one legend. If you've got people walking around with ST 20 then they're probably going to be facing monsters that can deal with DR 9 to 14.

[Kalzazz]

Oh sure. I really don't expect that many ST 20 PCs wielding generic thrusting broadswords clad in generic DR 9 heavy plate. However I was noting that instead of a ST 20 guy being on average able to deal a major wound through the heaviest armor he could wear without being slowed he now just deals an annoying one. Same with ST 16 guy.

So armor can better keep up with damage.

Of course I expect to see beefy monsters and/or weapon masters able to blast hits through DR 14 through sheer damage, imbuemists who can fling penetrating strike, high skill guys who can aim for chinks, musketry and spells which hit for raw damage, spells which ignore armor etc

And of course Mr. Beefy with run into situations where wearing full harness is just not kosher

As a note, any PC who springs for ST 20 (not cheap!) I will as a DM point out the desirability of ST and Weapon Master at some point . . . so they to can smash through DR 14. But even then DR 14 muffles the effect of a beefy weapon masters swing way more than DR 6 does. A ST 21 weapon master swings his sword for 22. Against DR 6 he sends himself right to KO check land. Against DR 14 he doesn't.

[Ji ji]

Originally Posted by JazzJedi

That isn't preserving log ST at all. That only changes the cost of ST. Most of the benefits of log ST are lost this way - the scaling of ST is still way beyond all other attributes. But, there likely is no better solution :-(

The idea is:
BL is esponential with respect to ST, that is BL = ST^2*k
Damage is rescaled linearly to ST, that is Dmg = ST*k [i.e. ST 20 is BL*4 and Dmg*2 to ST 10]
Cost of ST is a flat 10 cp up to ST 26, then it is log[1.02]ST

[Terwin]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

Oh sure. I really don't expect that many ST 20 PCs wielding generic thrusting broadswords clad in generic DR 9 heavy plate. However I was noting that instead of a ST 20 guy being on average able to deal a major wound through the heaviest armor he could wear without being slowed he now just deals an annoying one. Same with ST 16 guy.

So armor can better keep up with damage.

It sounds like you are trying to re-calculate strength so as to give the strong heavy-armor guy many of the advantages of the quick light-armor guy.

If you want heavy armor, you should be encumbered. Perhaps not heavy encumbrance if you are particularly strong, but at least medium would be my guess, especially if you want to be able to ignore most of the damage of a similarly strong opponent.

[Wavefunction]

Originally Posted by Terwin

It sounds like you are trying to re-calculate strength so as to give the strong heavy-armor guy many of the advantages of the quick light-armor guy.

If you want heavy armor, you should be encumbered. Perhaps not heavy encumbrance if you are particularly strong, but at least medium would be my guess, especially if you want to be able to ignore most of the damage of a similarly strong opponent.

I'd disagree with a number of points here. For a start, the strong heavy-armour guy has spent the points on ST that the quick light-armour guy spent on DX, Basic Speed, and Basic Move, meaning that they're fundamentally different.

Another point is that a very large point of getting ST is so that you can carry lots of armour without being overly encumbered. That is the reason you get it, it seems somewhat unreasonable to prevent them from doing so.

Note however that if you do want to be properly resistant to damage from individuals who possess the same ST as you, you will have to go into higher levels of Encumbrance.

[Kalzazz]

The heaviest armor a ST 10 guy can wear a suit of and still carry a sword and not be encumbered is well, none. A suit of DR 1 padded cloth is about 18lbs, throw in his sword and he's encumbered. So a ST 10 guy smacks himself for 4.5 damage.

ST 20 guy can wear DR 6 medium plate. He smacks himself for 7.5 damage past armor with that same sword.

So 37.5% of HP vs 45%

Dubious this is good.

I don't think it is proper for people to be immortal vs people of equal ST when unencumbered, but would be nice if average hits didnt bring major wounds

[Raekai]

I have to ask... Is there a quick-and-dirty fix for the problems that people seem to be having with DR and logarithmic Strength? Can I just multiply armor DR by 1.5 or by 2 and have something that is "good enough"? Of course, I guess everyone's idea of "good enough" is a little bit different, but is there something that would help tide one over until, perhaps, a new Pyramid article addresses said issue(s)?

Thanks!

And I apologize if I missed this earlier in the thread. I scanned and didn't really see anything to this effect.

[JazzJedi]

I came up with a fix for Log ST. HP are arbitrarily scaled up to match swing damage, and ST damage is also arbitrarily increased at ST 34 to match (as close as possible) damage and HP calculation of the standard exponential progression of HP (cube root of mass).

ST Cost is based on swing damage. Take (dice of Swing damage - 1) x 40. Each each +1 "pip" as +0.25 (e.g., 1d+1 is 0.25, 3d+2 is 2.5, 5d-1 is 4.75, and so forth). The scaled HP should be included in ST cost.

I realize this is terribly arbitrary, but I think it is a decent compromise for Log ST. You get the benefits of Log ST scaling for success rolls and Contests, and HP and damage increase appropriately at larger scales.

I apologize for the crudeness of this "table", but I couldn't figure out how to cut and paste from excel - it really messed the format up. Hopefully this is readable.

ST/Basic Lift/Swing/HP
1 2.5 1d-9 1
2 3.2 1d-8 2
3 4 1d-7 3
4 5 1d-6 4
5 6.4 1d-5 5
6 8 1d-4 6
7 10 1d-3 7
8 13 1d-2 8
9 16 1d-1 9
10 20 1d 10
11 25 1d+1 12
12 32 1d+2 15
13 40 2d-1 18
14 50 2d 20
15 64 2d+1 22
16 80 2d+2 25
17 100 3d-1 28
18 125 3d 30
19 160 3d+1 32
20 200 3d+2 35
21 250 4d-1 38
22 320 4d 40
23 400 4d+1 42
24 500 4d+2 45
25 640 5d-1 48
26 800 5d 50
27 1000 5d+1 52
28 1250 5d+2 55
29 1600 6d-1 58
30 2000 6d 60
31 2500 6d+1 62
32 3200 6d+2 65
33 4000 7d-1 68
34 5000 7d 70
35 6400 7d+2 75
36 8000 8d 80
37 5 tons 8d+2 85
38 6.4 tons 9d 90
39 8 tons 9d+2 95
40 10 tons 10d 100
41 12.5 tons 11d 110
42 16 tons 12d 120
43 20 tons 13d 130
44 25 tons 14d 140
45 32 tons 15d 150
46 40 tons 16d 160
47 50 tons 18d 180
48 64 tons 20d 200
49 80 tons 22d 220
50 100 tons 24d 240
51 125 tons 26d 260
52 160 tons 28d 280
53 200 tons 30d 300
54 250 tons 32d 320
55 320 tons 34d 340
56 400 tons 36d 360
57 500 tons 40d 400
58 640 tons 42d 420
59 800 tons 45d 450
60 1,000 tons 50d 500

For ST 61+, take the cube root of the BL (in tons) and multiply the result by 5, rounding down. Scale HP are equal to 10 × swing dice.

[DreadDomain]

Know your own ST is certainly among the best optional rule introduce to date to the point where I would have loved to see this scaling from the very start of 4th. Sure it doesn't cover all the bases, nor was it supposed to, but it is a stong base from which to develop.

Hey, maybe it will make the cut for 4th Revised (it's only a joke :-) )

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by JazzJedi

I thought of that too. It changes the scale of damage, DR, and HP too. Instead of using weight as a basis for hit points, I'm using damage. Each 1d of swing damage should be about 10 HP. So ST 14 (2d swing) would scale to 20 HP. I find this scales better than using weight for HP.

But the problem of extreme DR and damage scaling with square root of energy remains. Logarithmic ST is cool, but it creates as many problems as it tries to solve.

I was going to suggest that one could combine Knowing Your Own Strength with Extreme Damage from the Eidetic Memory column way back in Pyramid #3/34. Of course, with KYOS already redefining ST damage at the lower end so ST 20 does 3d Thrust, you'd want to adjust so that Thrust above that point was based on (ST/2) - 7d instead of (ST/2) - 9d as the original article has it. You'd then get the following progression:

ST Thrust
20 3d
21 3d+2
22 4d
24 5d
30 8d
40 13d
and so on...

You might also in that case want to reconsider the Pricing Revised Strength section in Knowing Your Own Strength, since the revised damage scale makes Striking ST worthwhile again. It seems like one could stick with the Basic rates of HP for 2 points each, Lifting ST for 3 points each, and Striking ST for 5 points each... so 10 points per added die of Thrust, which is twice as expensive as a Crushing Innate Attack, but then you can wield weapons for bonuses and different damage types, throw stuff at range, and get different per die skill bonuses, not to mention still having Power Blow, etc., as options (might want to make Power Blow only give a straight bonus for lifting purposes, while continuing to double or triple for damage purposes).

For damage comparison purposes, 13d+2 for a ST 41 super with a BL of 25,000 lbs and max two-handed lift of 100 short tons (i.e., 'Class 100' from the old OHOTMU, even though that capability may be a bit short of many actual comic book feats) may still be a little light for a would-be tank-buster, so go with the suggestion under Caps of allowing additional Striking ST for such characters equal to their base ST, so in this case total Striking ST of 82 for 34d... with even a +1 per die bonus to that from a decent Brawling or Forced Entry skill, that gets bumped up 42d+2, with All-Out Attack on top of that, 51d. Such a character would be paying over 500 points for ST 41 [310] plus Striking ST +41 [205] before even getting into defenses, skills, etc., and so would still be quite an expensive character overall, but should be relatively point-balanced with other types.

Of course, even if all the values work out nicely for most purposes, you still have the issue of it being a linear damage progression as compared against a logarithmic lifting progression, and you're not going to ultimately get away from that unless you look at scaling equipment Damage/DR/HP to match at some point.