On the uselessness of a karate course in GURPS

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Kromm

I don't see the advantage of giving unarmed skills a general default – that's over-complex for an innate capacity of any organism with a DX score.

Why not? Climbing is innate and it has a default.

If untrained people attacked using a Dx-3 Brawling default instead of DX it would better explain the tendency of untrained fighters to use Telegraphic and All-Out Attacks.

[Mr Frost]

Originally Posted by Anders

I don't think GURPS Marital Arts is out yet. The problem is that so many of the playtesters are single, so they have a hard getting realistic data... :)

Indeed , I hear many have been forced to take matters into their own hands :)

[lachimba]

Originally Posted by aesir23

I'm in the same boat: I just started training in Rapier, Longsword, and Sword and Buckler at a HEMA club about 6 months ago. Rapier is my best weapon--I train rapier about 3 hours a week in class and maybe 1 out of class on a good week. But after 6 months I can reliably win fights against many of my classmates and occasionally even get the better of my instructor (to be fair, he's much better at longsword.)

Strict adherence to the 200 hours = 1 point guidelines results in all sorts of nonsense when you apply it to real life. When I worked with youth at risk, we all received a single 8 hour seminar in passive restraint which was supposed to teach us how to grapple and restrain violent students. And it worked! I wasn't about to step into the octagon, but I could reliably and safely grapple restrain a young man who was truly trying to harm me--certainly not a Sport or Art skill.

But, if you'd like you can think of it this way: sometimes, when you go to Jujutsu class it's off-screen training (200 hours/point). But other times, it's an adventure! Those times, you're awarded points by your GM that you can immediately put towards skills and techniques.

I don't know anything about rapier fighting but there's all sorts of stats in your fight not just your skill level.

So ST etc


Do you think that the passive restraint is at first something like a one trick wonder?
Later from practice you can build it out to a full grappling skill.

You could allow something similar with elbow strikes and kneeing. Default at DX (-x) until you actually buy your first point of skill.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by lachimba

Do you think that the passive restraint is at first something like a one trick wonder?
Later from practice you can build it out to a full grappling skill.

Sure, but whether it's One Trick Wonder, Dabbler, or Wrestling Dx -1, it would still cost 1 point. My point was simply that the 200 hours = 1 point equivalency doesn't work reliably in real life.

[Rasputin]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Remember to use the higher of DX or skill. Going by the Basic Set alone, doing all the math to express things relative to DX (drop fractions at the very end!), and putting the benefits of Karate in boldface, the real progression is this:

(snipped for space)

This is great. I'm gonna have to try this with Brawling to see how that works, which is much more common in my games.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

That last bit worries me a little. I seem to recall knees to the groin being one of the things that happened in untrained brawls at school, and jabbing backwards with an elbow in an attempt to do something to the @$%^^& who's just sneaked up behind you is at least physically possible.

I'd say without skill training, those are just regular strikes. Actual training includes a conditional "Wild Swings to the rear suffer only -2" and call that Back Kick/Back Strike/Elbow Strike.

[Cheomesh]

I'm in favor of the DX-4 Brawling default for innate strikes. MA basically already sets that up anyways, with All Out or Telegraphics being the norm for untrained fighters.

It would also allow Dabbler perk to pay for it in a hastily trained context (I've discussed this before).

Kromm's got a great post. It shows that even a single point can greatly enhance your survival. It works even better if you're in an engagement that doesn't immediately fly into attack attack attack - remember, evaluations and the like really help stack the odds.

My writeups on combatives assumed that a typical soldier would only have a point in each core skill anyways; still gives you a lot over on the untrained.

M.

[Rasputin]

Let me try to pretend I'm Kromm and do what he did for Brawling:

0 points (DX only): Punch or bite at DX for thrust-1; kick at DX-2 for thrust; slam at DX for (HP × velocity)/100; armed enemies who parry your unarmed strikes attack your limb at full skill; strike with a blackjack or sap at DX for thrust; parry unarmed attacks at DX/2 + 3, or DX/2 + 4 if retreating; parry weapons at DX/2, or DX/2 + 1 if retreating; cannot attempt Back Kick, Elbow Strike, Jump Kick, Knee Strike.

1 point (Brawling at DX): Punch or bite at DX for thrust-1; kick at DX-2 for thrust; slam at DX for (HP × velocity)/100; armed enemies who parry your unarmed strikes attack your limb at full skill; strike with a blackjack or sap at DX for thrust; parry unarmed attacks at DX/2 + 3, or DX/2 + 4 if retreating; parry weapons at DX/2, or DX/2 + 1 if retreating; cannot attempt Back Kick, Jump Kick; Elbow Strike at DX-2; Knee Strike at DX-1.

2 points (Brawling at DX+1): Punch or bite at DX+1 for thrust-1; kick at DX-1 for thrust; slam at DX+1 for (HP × velocity)/100; armed enemies who parry your unarmed strikes attack your limb at full skill; strike with a blackjack or sap at DX+1 for thrust; parry unarmed attacks at DX/2 + 3.5, or DX/2 + 4.5 if retreating; parry weapons at DX/2 + 0.5, or DX/2 + 1.5 if retreating; cannot attempt Back Kick, Jump Kick; Elbow Strike at DX-1; Knee Strike at DX.

4 points (Brawling at DX+2): Punch or bite at DX+2 for thrust; kick at DX for thrust+1; slam at DX+2 for (HP × velocity)/100; armed enemies who parry your unarmed strikes attack your limb at full skill; strike with a blackjack or sap at DX+2 for thrust+1; parry unarmed attacks at DX/2 + 4, or DX/2 + 5 if retreating; parry weapons at DX/2 + 1, or DX/2 + 2 if retreating; cannot attempt Back Kick, Jump Kick; Elbow Strike at DX; Knee Strike at DX+1.

8 points (Brawling at DX+3): Punch or bite at DX+3 for thrust; kick at DX+1 for thrust+1; slam at DX+3 for (HP × velocity)/100; armed enemies who parry your unarmed strikes attack your limb at full skill; strike with a blackjack or sap at DX+3 for thrust+1; parry unarmed attacks at DX/2 + 4.5, or DX/2 + 5.5 if retreating; parry weapons at DX/2 + 1.5, or DX/2 + 2.5 if retreating; cannot attempt Back Kick, Jump Kick; Elbow Strike at DX+1; Knee Strike at DX+2.

So, a single point in Brawling is truly a Perk: Can try Elbow Strike and Knee Strike, and build up Brawling further. That seems fair for a point. And, for eight points, you can either punch at DX+1 for thrust+1, or at DX+3 for thrust, to compare between Brawling and Karate at their most basic.

[OldSam]

Originally Posted by Rasputin

So, a single point in Brawling is truly a Perk: Can try Elbow Strike and Knee Strike, and build up Brawling further. That seems fair for a point.

IMHO it's really not much what you get from Basic Set for 1 Pt compared to 0 Pt... (in Brawling or Karate) But if Martial Arts kicks in, I am much more satisfied with the result: MA113 with "Limited Maneuver Selection" and "Coin Toss" Option (limiting untrained fighters to AoA and AoD).
Now that 1 Pt. definitely pays off: I would translate that as a beginning understanding of timing/distance and standard attacks in fights. Really something beginners should have learned as a first step after year one in a good MA Dojo (if they trained seriously and the classes included a lot of partner practices).

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Mr Frost

Indeed , I hear many have been forced to take matters into their own hands :)

I wonder if Erotic Arts takes familiarity penalties for a new partner.

Sometimes my mind moves in mysterious ways.