On the uselessness of a karate course in GURPS

[Anders]

Originally Posted by lachimba

I don't know what the original poster meant be default character but sounds like they are unfamiliar with GURPS marital arts

I don't think GURPS Marital Arts is out yet. The problem is that so many of the playtesters are single, so they have a hard getting realistic data... :)

[lachimba]

Originally Posted by Anders

I don't think GURPS Marital Arts is out yet. The problem is that so many of the playtesters are single, so they have a hard getting realistic data... :)

Jaja :) auto correct!

[lachimba]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

That does not really explain, though, how Fairburn and Sykes were able to get better results with a dozen cartridges and half a dozen lessons than earlier trainers had got with much greater resources. Their book makes it clear that their basic course was relaxed, yet somehow it worked a lot better than many hours of shooting with an extended arm at targets far away. That does not fit the Basic Set description of Intensive Training or even the looser ones which are meant to cover things like cramming for the Imperial Exam.


Thought that might also be that GURPS tends to make being good at dangerous things expensive, and being good at quiet things cheap. There are deep mysteries in the relationship between inputs and outputs in education, but the 200-hours-per-point thing is only a rule of thumb because what counts as one skill is arbitrary.

IIRC there were some guidelines in a GURPS book for intensive training giving a temporary point or two in a skill.

Certainly we want to say that the group of raw recruits mercilessly drilled by talented trainers for 12 hours three days in a row will be better at fighting their hypothetically untrained opponents. That feels true in both fiction and real life.

Equally me with ten hours of training from a pilot is going to have a better chance of landing a plane than myself with just default today.

I wonder if these are teaching or leadership acting as complimentary skills giving a +1 to defaults

[Celjabba]

In my games, I usually rule that the first CP in a skill without default can be earned very fast, a few hours of adequate teaching/training is usually enough.
The exception being VH skills.

Justification :

In my opinion, learning a skill goes through the following steps;
-no knowledge of the skill at all
-knowlege that the skill exist
-second-hand knowledge of the skill (witnessing it being used)
-basic training in the skill
-basic training in the skill + experience
-basic training in the skill + lot of experience
-advanced training in the skill
-advanced training in the skill + experience
-advanced training in the skill + lot of experience
-...

The skills progression in Gurps goes :

skills without default, ignoring familiarities :
-no roll possible
-1 CP in the skill
-2 CP in the skill
-4 CP in the skill
-8 CP in the skill
+4 Cp/lvl

skills with default, ignoring familiarities :
-no roll possible
-roll at default
-roll at default +1 (dabbler)
-roll at default +2 (dabbler)
-roll at default +3 (dabbler)
-1 CP in the skill
-2 CP in the skill
-4 CP in the skill
-8 CP in the skill
+4 CP/lvl

For skills with a default, the two chart map rather well one to one

-no knowledge of the skill at all = no roll possible
-knowlege that the skill exist = roll at default
-second-hand knowledge of the skill = roll at default +1 (dabbler)
-basic training in the skill = roll at default +2 (dabbler)
-basic training in the skill + experience = roll at default +3 (dabbler)
-basic training in the skill + lot of experience = 1 CP in the skill
-advanced training in the skill = 2 CP in the skill
-advanced training in the skill + experience = 4 CP in the skill
-advanced training in the skill + lot of experience = 8 CP in the skill

For skills without a default ... the mapping is not as smooth.

-no knowledge of the skill at all = no roll possible
-knowlege that the skill exist = no roll possible
-second-hand knowledge of the skill = no roll possible
-basic training in the skill = 1 CP
-basic training in the skill + experience = 1 CP
-basic training in the skill + lot of experience = 1CP or 2 CP ?
-advanced training in the skill = 2CP
-advanced training in the skill + experience = 2 or 4CP ?
-advanced training in the skill + lot of experience = 4 or 8CP ?
-...

Celjabba

[Phil Masters]

Originally Posted by Kromm

0 points (DX only): Punch at DX for thrust-1; kick at DX-2 for thrust; armed enemies who parry your unarmed strikes attack your limb at full skill; parry unarmed attacks at DX/2 + 3, or DX/2 + 4 if retreating; parry weapons at DX/2, or DX/2 + 1 if retreating; cannot attempt Back Kick, Elbow Strike, Jump Kick, Knee Strike.

That last bit worries me a little. I seem to recall knees to the groin being one of the things that happened in untrained brawls at school, and jabbing backwards with an elbow in an attempt to do something to the @$%^^& who's just sneaked up behind you is at least physically possible.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

That last bit worries me a little. I seem to recall knees to the groin being one of the things that happened in untrained brawls at school, and jabbing backwards with an elbow in an attempt to do something to the @$%^^& who's just sneaked up behind you is at least physically possible.

I agree. Another reason to simply get rid of Dex based attacks and give Brawling a default.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

That last bit worries me a little. I seem to recall knees to the groin being one of the things that happened in untrained brawls at school, and jabbing backwards with an elbow in an attempt to do something to the @$%^^& who's just sneaked up behind you is at least physically possible.

Those two strikes are techniques that deliver maximum force with a joint. What an untrained brawler does is still hitting with the joint, but, with less impact. In other words, no damage bonus from the techniques.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by p. B203

Karate improves damage: if you know Karate at DX level, add +1 per die to basic thrust damage when you calculate damage with Karate attacks: punches, kicks, elbow strikes, etc. Add +2 per die if you know Karate at DX+1 or better!

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

That last bit worries me a little. I seem to recall knees to the groin being one of the things that happened in untrained brawls at school, and jabbing backwards with an elbow in an attempt to do something to the @$%^^& who's just sneaked up behind you is at least physically possible.

I don't see the advantage of giving unarmed skills a general default – that's over-complex for an innate capacity of any organism with a DX score. But I'd be fine with saying that Brawling can be replaced with DX-4 for working out technique levels. For one thing, DX-4 is equal to the usual default level for a DX/Easy skill. For another, All-Out Attack (Determined) or Telegraphic Attack could cancel the -4.

[joppeknol]

Maybe I should restate a few things:

I practiced jujutsu for a few years (3 hours a week, not intensively) I am and was definitely not bruce lee and I will not claim any high skill in it.

However, I have the distinct impression that if you let me, untrained, practice for 4 hours a week for one year, then let me fight against my untrained self (assuming that it were possible), that the trained version of myself would win reliably. Of course, I don't know if this impression is shared. It might be the increased self-confidence as some have said.

1 cp in karate gives you the benefits as described in DrKromms post. Except for the retreating parry, it does not seem to give much difference in the previously described fight. It does't seem to be enough to allow a reliable win for my karate-self.

If you assume karate(sports) skill, the things get even worse. It will take years before you notice any improvements. I never did karate, so I cannot comment on that situation.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by joppeknol

Maybe I should restate a few things:

I practiced jujutsu for a few years (3 hours a week, not intensively) I am and was definitely not bruce lee and I will not claim any high skill in it.

However, I have the distinct impression that if you let me, untrained, practice for 4 hours a week for one year, then let me fight against my untrained self (assuming that it were possible), that the trained version of myself would win reliably. Of course, I don't know if this impression is shared. It might be the increased self-confidence as some have said.

1 cp in karate gives you the benefits as described in DrKromms post. Except for the retreating parry, it does not seem to give much difference in the previously described fight. It does't seem to be enough to allow a reliable win for my karate-self.

If you assume karate(sports) skill, the things get even worse. It will take years before you notice any improvements. I never did karate, so I cannot comment on that situation.

I'm in the same boat: I just started training in Rapier, Longsword, and Sword and Buckler at a HEMA club about 6 months ago. Rapier is my best weapon--I train rapier about 3 hours a week in class and maybe 1 out of class on a good week. But after 6 months I can reliably win fights against many of my classmates and occasionally even get the better of my instructor (to be fair, he's much better at longsword.)

Strict adherence to the 200 hours = 1 point guidelines results in all sorts of nonsense when you apply it to real life. When I worked with youth at risk, we all received a single 8 hour seminar in passive restraint which was supposed to teach us how to grapple and restrain violent students. And it worked! I wasn't about to step into the octagon, but I could reliably and safely grapple restrain a young man who was truly trying to harm me--certainly not a Sport or Art skill.

But, if you'd like you can think of it this way: sometimes, when you go to Jujutsu class it's off-screen training (200 hours/point). But other times, it's an adventure! Those times, you're awarded points by your GM that you can immediately put towards skills and techniques.