Need help fighting the dreaded MinMaxer.

[Nereidalbel]

As far as the RAW goes? Legit attack. 0 effect on enemies with 18 Cosmic DR, though.

As far as the Cosmics on the attack go? 100% up to the GM whether they're allowed or not. Granted, I'd pay the extra points to have a Rcl of 1 and a fairly high Acc, just so I can dish out maximum murder...

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

As far as the Cosmics on the attack go? 100% up to the GM whether they're allowed or not. Granted, I'd pay the extra points to have a Rcl of 1 and a fairly high Acc, just so I can dish out maximum murder...

Rcl 1 is evidently standard. Otherwise, I agree: More accuracy, lower RoF (300 is just ridiculous overkill, especially for the costs involved), higher base damage. And I'd base my armor divisor on the DR I would typically expect in the campaign. Chances are, for your point, you'll get more reasonable damage totals that way.

This attack is highly specialized to be good at killing giant, unmoving slabs of TL 12 exotic laminate. Then it'll hit 150-300 times and ignore the ridiculous DR, and inflict something like 3000 damage directly. But other than attacking things like that, this attack doesn't strike me as particularly twinky.

[Gedrin]

So, you're worried that Darkseid's Omega Beams are OP?

That aside, think about the countermeasures to such attacks. Is the MinMaxer also proof vs. .338 Lapua? Can he see invisible? Does he have abilities that conquer space, time and fate...other than his attack, or do the psi-mites of Boscone capture him and whipe out the party?

Essentially, it sounds like he's got the demi-god in Olympus problem. His attack puts him in the room with crazy powerful beings. The sort of beings that developed such attacks for a reason. However, he doesn't seem to have the "whole package".

The problem here is that, especially with the "not proof vs snipers", he has an omnipotent attack. The ONLY defense left is to not allow him to attack. Anyone who knows they'll face him, will flee, and then snipe/trap/bomb, or whatever enormously un-fun beyond-visual/reprisal-range attacks work. Since he has certain death with the flick of a finger, no one will show on the field that doesn't have a solution to the problem.

I would strongly discourage such a character, and point out the rational responses for foes who discover they'll be challenging him.

[Jasonft]

As to the other things: He claims that since he officially works as bodyguard for the party Gadgeteer (who can build the stuff for him) the 15 point 'Gadgeteer Friend' means he doesn't have to pay for his hideously expensive TL11 powered battlesuit. With supporting sensory gear of course.

Only the civilian model battlesuit of course. He tried to claim military clearances and a license to kill but the GM never got a good enough story for why he should have those other than vague nebulous gray areas of the background.

So Homing means it takes time to get to the target? Interesting. I forgot about that one.

I still have to say my biggest problem is that a +20% add on to the power means you never hit anything other than your target(s). At the very least it should scale up with the RoF of the attack and be more expensive at high levels.

The fact that the mere +20% also stops the attack from blowing through the target and hitting things behind it is BS to me.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Jasonft

The fact that the mere +20% also stops the attack from blowing through the target and hitting things behind it is BS to me.

The OP says that this is a crushing attack, so it wouldn't do overpenetration anyway. Per B408, only piercing, impaling, and tight-beam burning attacks can overpenetrate.

The wording in PU4 ("hose down an area") suggests that this effect applies only when you're using the Suppression Fire rule on B409. ("This involves holding down the trigger and 'hosing down' an area with fire.") Note the restrictions built into that rule (adjacent two-hex zones with at least 5 shots per; also, using the attack requires an All-out Attack, which is to say no defenses while GravGuy does his dakka-dakka.

If you also allow Selective Area to apply when using the Spraying Fire rule, I'd say the unaffected targets still soak up their quota of shots. Those shots are just smart enough not to hit. (They dissipate, dive into the ground, harmlessly self-destruct; whatever; this is one place where ericthered's call for fluff is particularly relevant.) The shot count is as much about traversal time as anything else, so even if it's a smart gun that just stops its autofire when you wave it over a friendly, that means its cutting its effective RoF for the same net effect on how many enemy targets can get how many bullets. (Again, fluff matters here -- do rounds get wasted, or do they stay in the smart gun?)

Strictly speaking, the text in PU4 suggests two options: either you can hose down an area with attacks that have Rapid Fire, or you can have have misses and overpenetration not hit friendlies (for RoF 1 attacks). To highlight the parsing, I'll bold one option and underline the other.

Originally Posted by PU4

An attack with Selective Effect and Rapid Fire can hose down an area that contains both friend and foe without risking a “friendly fire” incident. The GM might even permit Selective Effect on attacks with RoF 1. This would prevent shots that miss or overpenetrate from hitting allies in the line of fire.

Either option is suitable for the “smart bullets” seen in pulp sci-fi.

"Either option" instead of "both" suggests they're exclusive, and you'd have to buy it twice to get both.

However, I wouldn't recommend trying to be that legalistic about GURPS rules. They're not intended for lawyers to battle it out over the text, which wasn't written and edited with that sort of scrutiny in mind. They're intended for cooperative groups of reasonable adults.

[Mailanka]

[QUOTE=Jasonft;1923903]

As to the other things: He claims that since he officially works as bodyguard for the party Gadgeteer (who can build the stuff for him) the 15 point 'Gadgeteer Friend' means he doesn't have to pay for his hideously expensive TL11 powered battlesuit. With supporting sensory gear of course.

Only the civilian model battlesuit of course. He tried to claim military clearances and a license to kill but the GM never got a good enough story for why he should have those other than vague nebulous gray areas of the background.

Okay. So he's got a cybersuit. Cybersuits are pretty cool (They're my go-to choice for characters like Raiden from Metal Gear). I can see why he wants one. Of course, it's traditional in Supers games to charge points for things like cybersuits, but if you want to allow him to have it for 15 points, you're free to do so. Did he also take is as signature gear? If not, that probably means the gadgeteer loaned it out to him, but it's just "for this episode," after which it'll break, or the gadgeteer will ask for it back, or what have you. It's doesn't really belong to the character if he hasn't paid for it in one form or another, and "gadgeteer's friend" is not paying for it. It's paying for access to the gadgeteer.

Also, if this sort of technology is around, then it's around. I wouldn't give it to every tom, dick and harry, but if there is a gadgeteer inventing TL 11 stuff, then there are other people inventing TL 11 stuff too, and he may well end up facing opponents in Dreadnought power armor (not that it would really matter, given that he can ignore their DR, but there's a symmetry there you often find in comics).

So Homing means it takes time to get to the target? Interesting. I forgot about that one.

I still have to say my biggest problem is that a +20% add on to the power means you never hit anything other than your target(s). At the very least it should scale up with the RoF of the attack and be more expensive at high levels.

The fact that the mere +20% also stops the attack from blowing through the target and hitting things behind it is BS to me.

Well, I wouldn't disallow it, as it's largely irrelevant to its combat capability, perfectly in keeping with the themes of super-hero stuff, and it's the reason he took ROF 300, which is a pointless ability compared to other, more effective build options. He wants to throw hundreds of blasts downrange per second. That makes him happy. He just realizes that would, like, destroy everyone, so he's come up with a reason for it not to do that. That's fun for him. I wouldn't take that away from him.

But let's set that aside. You're the GM. You think it's crazy. So say so. Say "Nope, you can't do that." Because you're allowed to. There are two running themes in this thread that bug me. The first is that you seem to feel powerless. You've already decided you don't like this power and you've come to us for... what? Permission to say no to this guy? You have my permission. Say no to this guy. I bet if you ask nicely, Kromm will even sprinkle a bit of holy water and say "Go forth my son, and use the power of Rule 0 wisely." But even if you didn't ask us, you'd still be allowed to say no. And if he didn't like you saying no, it's not like saying "But some guys on a forum said I could" would make him respond with "Well then, then it's okay!"

The second is that you seem to also feel powerless before this guy. This is a supers game. Ridiculously OP attacks and defenses is the order of the day. There's even an advantage called Overpower, or some such, which lets you basically do whatever you want with a power once. You can toss planets with that thing, and I'm not kidding. You can build characters who can punch tanks, survive nuclear blasts, and blanket a city in mind control. This guy wants to build an attack that doesn't harm civilians, and you don't like that. Why? How would you feel if he made one of the other powers I mentioned?

It also sounds like you just handed this guy the book, and you didn't like what he came up with. Why aren't you making the characters with him? Why aren't you using the templates out of the Supers book? Why aren't you building pre-appoved power-lists that people can choose from?

You're in charge. That's not just the power to say no, it's the responsibility to explain what you'll say yes to. It's the responsibility to work with them. You're trying to create a cool story/world together, so work with him. Ask him questions, like why he wants the cybersuit, and why he didn't take it as signature gear, and if he realizes it'll probably have bugs and flaws (which you won't use to strip him of the armor he clearly wants, but to make the armor more interesting and to balance the fact that he didn't pay points for it). Ask him why he wants an ROF 300 attack, what he expects it to look like, and why he thinks it's necessary and cool. Build your opposition around that. Give him his moment where his attack turns out to be exquisitely and cleverly perfect for the situation. Then give him one where it's not appropriate and see how he handles it, how he gets creative. That's what these games are for.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by Jasonft

As to the other things: He claims that since he officially works as bodyguard for the party Gadgeteer (who can build the stuff for him) the 15 point 'Gadgeteer Friend' means he doesn't have to pay for his hideously expensive TL11 powered battlesuit. With supporting sensory gear of course.

The battlesuit still needs to be paid for. Gadgeteer Friend only gives him the option to do so, not give him any high-tech item for free.

[Captain Joy]

It may be too late, but could you restrict everybody to only one cosmic enhancement?

[ericthered]

What's the fluff? Yes, the fluff.

Supers games are generally best balanced and played with strong acompanying fluff to go with them. The player should buy a full suite of abilities. The power source should be flavorful. And it should fit the power.

The folks who have pointed out he has two 'four eye' enhancements are correct. I'll add that high ROF has two eyes with a plus -- high levels are higher than the initial rating. And there are two cosmics here. You have every right to say no. Really, the only problem is probably with high ROF -- a seeking lightning bolt isn't overpowered -- its the very basic magic missile spell of that other game.

------------------------------

Countering him in play takes preparation but is doable: range, invisibility, subterfuge, cosmic DR, cosmic dodge, Diffuse, Insubstantial. And directly countering the power.

----------------------------------

I'm thinking of my own supers game (1,000 points, restricted point expenditure). One character is traditionally miles from the fight and is capable of making magical defense against the attack, given enough information . One character is insubstantial. One character has cosmic dodge. Two characters use a house-ruled form of invulnerability based on insubstantial. I'm pointing out challenges to his power do exist. These are 1,000 point characters, but they also mostly ignore the attack, rather than being resistant to it or being custom equipped to deal with the problem.

[Vynticator]

Originally Posted by Jasonft

To start, I think it is broken as heck... but it looks legal.

Someone built a ranged attack....

Would I ever allow it in my game if I was GM? Heck no. But I need solid rules to stand on when arguing with this person as a fellow player.

Help?

From this, it seems like the OP is *not* the GM, but a fellow player. He seems to be unhappy that someone else bought a killer attack and the GM allowed it.

That changes my feelings about how to respond. If the GM says it's ok, it's not really your place to complain that he (the other player's character) is too good. You had, I assume, the same points budget. If the game is all about dealing huge damage, and you didn't build as deadly a set of powers, that's a little bit unfortunate but I guess you gotta deal with that as a player.

If you're all new ish to Supers/Powers, then maybe the GM ought to run a tester few sessions, allowing people to tweak their builds if they don't work as intended or seem underpowered. That should prevent a feeling of jealousy if your build is 'inefficient'.

A better solution is for you to play to your own character's strengths and stop worrying about Mr RoF.

Maybe encourage the GM to diversify the foes and challenges so it's not all about the killing. Maybe you have exotic senses, precognition, investigative abilities, super speed, super defences, magic hypnosis, healing, or whatever: these might be more interesting and offer chances for better roleplaying than Mr Trigger Finger. But if the campaign idea was "Supers Kill Bad Guys" and you had a ton of points and built a less efficient death machine, um, bad luck fella.