Removing the double daggers from weapons

[Anders]

I've been thinking about a Technique or advantage that would allow you to use a weapon with a double-dagger notation for ST without it becoming unready.

Now, you can use a weapon that requires more ST than you have at a penalty of -1 per ST you're missing, and lose 1 FP at the end of each fight that lasts long enough to fatigue you. And you can wield a double-dagger weapon without it becoming unready if you have x1.5 the ST required for normal use. Combining these two gives a an attack at a penalty equal to 0.5xST to use the weapon without it becoming unready. A Hard Technique to buy off that penalty, seems balanced (if cinematic).

Another possibility is to use the Extra Effort rules and simply charge 1 FP to attack without the weapon becoming unready. This is very simple, which is attractive.

A third possibility is based around the theory that you could Rapid Strike to ready an unready weapon. Again, using a Technique to buy off the penalty would seem appropriate.

A fourth possibility is to use Extra Attack for the express purpose of readying an unready weapon. This would probably be a -80% limitation.

A fifth possibility is to use Striking ST, again limited to the express purpose of readying an unready weapon. Again, probably a -80% limitation.

Or you could create a special advantage and call it a day. Based on the examples above, 5 to 10 points would seem appropriate.

So, if you wanted to do this, what approach would you use?

[GodBeastX]

I prefer techniques for things like this.

[D10]

From a PM Kromm sent me not long ago

Originally Posted by Kromm

Sorry I missed this until just now . . . I had a lot of messages.

By the rules, there's a huge difference between a "U" on Parry and a "‡" on ST:

"U" means that the weapon is actually held differently to attack and defend. Changing between offensive and defensive use is effectively a free choice once per turn, but it's a matter of stance and grip, just like an "F" on Parry. To avoid this, use the Defensive Attack maneuver (which lets you attack from the defensive stance by taking a small damage penalty) or the Rapid Recovery extra-effort option (which lets you cram extra action into your turn for a FP cost).

"‡" means that the weapon is cumbersome and slow. You can parry all you want without attacking, but if you attack, the weapon actually becomes unready. To avoid this, make sure you have 1.5 times the needed ST.

Being really strong probably shouldn't help much with "U" at all. That's actually more an issue of agility and speed. I could see changing "you can't parry after you attack" to "it's hard to parry after you attack," assessing -4 or -5 to your Parry score after attacking, and letting someone buy this off as a Hard technique. That would be a highly optional house rule, though!

[chandley]

Originally Posted by Anders

I've been thinking about a Technique or advantage that would allow you to use a weapon with a double-dagger notation for ST without it becoming unready.

Combining these two gives a an attack at a penalty equal to 0.5xST to use the weapon without it becoming unready. A Hard Technique to buy off that penalty, seems balanced (if cinematic).

Another possibility is to use the Extra Effort rules and simply charge 1 FP to attack without the weapon becoming unready. This is very simple, which is attractive.

A fourth possibility is to use Extra Attack for the express purpose of readying an unready weapon. This would probably be a -80% limitation.


So, if you wanted to do this, what approach would you use?

I like those three, and dont see why you couldnt have them all in a campaign. Using Extra Attack might require Multistrike if you dont have the -80% limitation on it.

[T.K.]

What's the problem with the normal "get stronger" RAW solution?

Melee fighters are supposed to be strong and even on highly cinematic scenarios like anime, supers, high fantasy, skinny-looking melee fighters often have huge ST.

I'd sincerely go with, buy more ST. If you want the feel of supposedly weak-fragile-looking fighters that can dish a lot of damage, allow Striking ST to be bought.

You could even buy Striking ST (Only X weapon), for example...

[Varyon]

A while back, I came up with a way to use Grip CP (from Technical Grappling) as an alternative way of handling MinST, and tossed in some extra rules for Unready weapons. The latter could be adapted relatively easily for normal GURPS use. Essentially, each time you attack with a ‡ weapon (assuming you lack sufficient ST to meet the 1.5xMinST workaround), you lose 1/4th the weapon's MinST (round down) from your own ST for damaging with follow-up attacks. You can regain this with an Attack at +4 (for Telegraphic) or a Ready. The Attack restores up to 1/4th of your ST (round down), the Ready fully restores it. If you ever drop to 0 ST or lower, you drop the weapon after your attack.

So, let's say you've got a Halberd (MinST 13‡) and have ST 16. Each time you swing it, you lose 3 ST for purposes of dealing damage. Each successful Attack to regain your grip restores 4 ST. Assuming you have Trained By a Master or Weapon Master, you could opt to make a Rapid Strike at -3/+1 - the first to attack your foe, the second to restore your grip on the weapon.


Something a bit more RAW, and playing off of T.K.'s "get stronger" solution, the Huge Weapons (ST) Perk increases ST for the sole purpose of meeting MinST requirements. You're normally restricted to two levels of it, but the GM may allow you to buy more of it for meeting the 1.5xMinST requirement. You may be able to argue for +2 ST for each [1] if you restrict it to a single weapon design (such as Only Halberds).

[A Ladder]

Why not use the Huge Weapons perk and allow it to be bought multiple times?

So a double dagger ST 12 maul requires ST 18 to wield without the U penalty.

For a ST 10 peasant, they would buy 8 levels of the Huge Weapons perk for [8]. For a ST 13 warrior, they would just buy 5 levels of the Huge Weapons perk for [5]. Sounds like really similar to hard technique.

Seems way easier IMO.

[Anders]

The cost is roughly the same whatever method you use - which is good! I think I'll go with Extra Attack, either -80% [5] for one weapon or -60% [10] for one skill. That should be roughly balanced and avoids fiddling with detailed numbers. I'm all for reducing the number of Techniques and Skills.

[Flyndaran]

As a child I had a severe temper problem. I tended to hulk out with absurd strength for my size. I once shoved a bunk bed across the room at age 7 that I couldn't budge normally.

So this thread makes me imagine an adult me raging and hitting someone with a couch.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Anders

The cost is roughly the same whatever method you use - which is good! I think I'll go with Extra Attack, either -80% [5] for one weapon or -60% [10] for one skill. That should be roughly balanced and avoids fiddling with detailed numbers. I'm all for reducing the number of Techniques and Skills.

Single Skill is canonically only -20% for Extra Attack (MA44). I don't know if there's an official Limitation for Single Weapon (that is, single specific type of weapon - so Halberd, not My Father's Halberd), but I'd eyeball it at around -50%.

That said, I do agree that somewhere between [5] and [10] is likely an appropriate cost for the trait.