[PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech

[Luther]

Originally Posted by Andrew Hackard

Explain this, please. I don't see how having fantasy tech (which I presume will be clearly marked) makes the historical information less useful

Having fantasy stuff in Low-Tech doesn't make historical information less useful, it makes the book less useful, because there is less space for historical information.

Originally Posted by Andrew Hackard

Well, it should. A cumbersome and dull book does not serve the game or the people who play it. The simulationism should be there for the people who want it, but it absolutely should not be the primary goal.

Cumbersome? Dull? What a weak reply from you. Also I never wrote that simulationism should be the primary goal, just that the book should focus on historical accuracy, and as far as gear data this doesn't detract from fun and gameability. Choosing a Fantasyesque title can shift book's focus and become an excuse for poor historical research.

[Luther]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Of course. Just like Low-Tech for 3e, it'll cover armor, weapons, and non-military tech. And sure, it can make fixes. So far, we're still playing within the 128 pages of Low-Tech for 3e, though. We're just tweaking a few numbers and stats.

Well, but you aren't considering the following:

• Arms and Armors size and scaling rules
• Arms and Armors breakage rules
• TL0-3 Mass Combat

Is the book going to include the above?

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Luther

Well, but you aren't considering the following:

• Arms and Armors size and scaling rules
• Arms and Armors breakage rules
• TL0-3 Mass Combat

Is the book going to include the above?

Scaling is a good topic . . . but note that it's of no historical value. On Earth, in its history, wars have been fought by precisely one race -- the human one -- and armies have been pretty serious about not accepting too many people who aren't soldier-sized. All told, scaling rules for equipment would be a waste of time in a purely historical book. Fortunately, they're useful in fantasy . . .

Breakage is covered in the Basic Set. Detailed breakage, and rules for armor maintenance, are very likely. No problem.

Mass combat is utterly off-topic. We have a Military book in our future, and mass combat is earmarked for that supplement.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Scaling is a good topic . . . but note that it's of no historical value.

I believe Luther is referring to human scaling.
It's rather unrealistic to have armor for a 5'2" 125 lbs Phoenician weigh as much as armor for a 6'4" Norseman.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

I believe Luther is referring to human scaling.
It's rather unrealistic to have armor for a 5'2" 125 lbs Phoenician weigh as much as armor for a 6'4" Norseman.

Since armor weight affects combat performance (namely, Dodge via encumbrance) and height is a roleplaying decision, canonically unlinked to ST, it's unlikely we'll do this. "Sorry, you're 6'4" and ST 12, so you're hosed next to the 5'4", ST 12 guy" is precisely the sort of simulation > fun decision I refuse to let happen on my watch. It's up there with making all female characters ST 8 or going back to Fat giving extra encumbrance.

[Andrew Hackard]

Originally Posted by Luther

Having fantasy stuff in Low-Tech doesn't make historical information less useful, it makes the book less useful, because there is less space for historical information.

That's your opinion. I think a guide which includes purely historical sections as well as sections that show how to incorporate this information into a fantasy game would be a hot seller. Like it or not (and you clearly don't), fantasy is far and away the most popular genre for RPGs.

Originally Posted by Luther

Also I never wrote that simulationism should be the primary goal, just that the book should focus on historical accuracy, and as far as gear data this doesn't detract from fun and gameability.

It is my experience and my opinion that as soon as people start talking about wanting more gear, the fun and gameability of the supplement plummets. Bor-r-r-ring. If two swords are almost identical, but one is 90 cm long and one is 95 cm long, I don't care. I can count on all the fingers of my left foot the number of times that distinction would matter in a game I ran or would be interested in playing in. Give a decent representative of a given class of weapon, give stats for any especially interesting variants, and let the rest be handled in an equipment list. ("The foo-sword is just like the bar-sword, except that the grip uses horsehide rather than cowhide.") To me, the important thing is not list after list of barely differentiated gear; the important thing is how to use that gear in a game-appropriate way. And, again, the most popular genre is fantasy, and this is the book that will have the gear most appropriate to a typical fantasy game.

Originally Posted by Luther

Choosing a Fantasyesque title can shift book's focus and become an excuse for poor historical research.

That's what the playtest is for -- get yourself involved in it and make sure that doesn't happen. But don't slag a book that, as far as any of us knows, hasn't even been written yet, just because Kromm proposed a title that you don't like. At least wait for the cover before you judge the book, Luther!

Since you're so hopped up on the title, let me ask this: if the book were still called LOW-TECH but included boxes on how the various gear could be used in a fantasy game -- which, from how I'm reading Kromm's note, is essentially the plan anyway -- would you be as annoyed?

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Since armor weight affects combat performance (namely, Dodge via encumbrance) and height is a roleplaying decision, canonically unlinked to ST, it's unlikely we'll do this.

That's more of an issue with Dodge really, now isn't it? *grin*

Originally Posted by Kromm

"Sorry, you're 6'4" and ST 12, so you're hosed next to the 5'4", ST 12 guy" is precisely the sort of simulation > fun decision I refuse to let happen on my watch.

It'd be something which would help pull players into playing more appropriately sized humans.

GM: Sure you can play a 6'4" Roman Legionnaire, just be aware that the general issue armor will not fit you, and the custom built pieces will cost and weigh $xx more.
Player: Um, I think being 5'2" to 5'4" is looking more and more attractive.


Oh, and the real point is that sure if you're 6'4" you may have to be ST 12 to carry that armor, but if you're 5'4" maybe you can get away with only being ST 10 to carry that armor.

Which means you're not penalizing someone for being smaller, and you're not penalizing female characters for choosing not to play bricks.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

That's more of an issue with Dodge really, now isn't it? *grin*

I have no issues with the way encumbrance affects Move and Dodge, sorry.

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

It'd be something which would help pull players into playing more appropriately sized humans.

First, no, you're wrong. It's the perfect way to get the Squad of Four-Foot-Nothing Midgets with ST 18.

Second, it isn't the place of Low-Tech to dictate biomechanics.

The book was never intended to be the Holy Grail of Realism with all the crunchy rules for demographics, human biology, warfare, etc. It was always meant as a gear catalog. That's set in stone, and not open to discussion. It isn't a statement that there won't be books on those topics, however. It's just pointing out that whether we call it Low-Tech, Fantasy-Tech, or Tofurkey, it won't be in the business of talking about human beings, communities, etc. Those are character and campaign issues, for suitable e23 supplements for realism freaks.

[Luther]

Originally Posted by Andrew Hackard

if the book were still called LOW-TECH but included boxes on how the various gear could be used in a fantasy game -- which, from how I'm reading Kromm's note, is essentially the plan anyway -- would you be as annoyed?

No. Far less annoyed. If the focus is historically accurate low tech, with fantasy as an addition, and the title isn't fantasyesque, I can make up my mind on the issue.

[Luther]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Scaling is a good topic . . . but note that it's of no historical value. On Earth, in its history, wars have been fought by precisely one race -- the human one -- and armies have been pretty serious about not accepting too many people who aren't soldier-sized. All told, scaling rules for equipment would be a waste of time in a purely historical book. Fortunately, they're useful in fantasy . . .

(I disagree that scaling rules are worthless in a historical book: armors had to be sized individually, a ST 15 HP 15 warrior is going to be very different from the average soldier. However you are the Line Editor, and you decide, so . . . )
OK, I can see this topic interesting for a low tech book with fantasy bits in:
Arms and Armors Scaling Rules, From Dwarves to Giants. Are you going to include them?

Originally Posted by Kromm

It was always meant as a gear catalog.

I have Low-Tech 3e in front of me, it's far from being a gear catalog.
Is this going to change with the new 4e version?