Skills as perks

[Phil Masters]

I could certainly see Crewman and maybe even Soldier as perks. "You do not make an idiot of yourself around a <vessel type>" and "You're acclimatised to the military way of doing stuff and familiar with the standard equipment of <specified army>".

[Polydamas]

I agree that some Skills would be better represented as Perks. But this will not change the number of small-s skills in the system. Perhaps it would be better to acknowledge that skills will often overlap?

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

I could certainly see Crewman and maybe even Soldier as perks. "You do not make an idiot of yourself around a <vessel type>" and "You're acclimatised to the military way of doing stuff and familiar with the standard equipment of <specified army>".

I don't think so; most soldiers or sailors would say that there are people who are clearly careful and competent, and people who fumble their way through, and that experience has something to do with it. There are probably estimates out there of how long it took a newly impressed sailor to become competent in the 18th century; if it was more than a month or two of immersion than a Perk feels too cheap.

[Phil Masters]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

I don't think so; most soldiers or sailors would say that there are people who are clearly careful and competent, and people who fumble their way through, and that experience has something to do with it. There are probably estimates out there of how long it took a newly impressed sailor to become competent in the 18th century; if it was more than a month or two of immersion than a Perk feels too cheap.

Stat differences would generally suffice to distinguish the useful types from the nuisances, and in a lot of cases, the really useful semi-specialists will have some flavour of Mechanic or similar (Electronics Ops, a heavy weapons skill, whatever) to represent what they're really useful at.

As someone noted in the recent thread discussing Crewman skill, this is often taken by PCs to indicate that they won't get underfoot when travelling by a given vehicle type, but rarely actually rolled. At some point, one might as well make something like that a perk rather than a full skill. And what can Sailor-18 actually do so much better than Sailor-11?

[Anders]

And give an IQ roll for knowledge questions, like Captain America in The Winter Soldier realizing that the ammunitions depot is in the wrong place.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by malloyd

NBC Suit. OTW of Hazardous Materials. Putting you your PPE comes pretty early in teaching that surely. Also Environment Suit.

What Environment Suit skills actually do isn't handled well that way.

For the putting on and/or operating element, being restricted to OTW means you can only be any good at it if you're a genius...and not all suits will necessarily be easy to use. This is a somewhat general problem with the 'perk to attribute level' replacement...even if a skill isn't very broad, a character might want to be competent at it, and attribute level is frequently less than competent.

But the bigger problem is that Environment Suit acts as a DX and skill cap..

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

What Environment Suit skills actually do isn't handled well that way.

For the putting on and/or operating element, being restricted to OTW means you can only be any good at it if you're a genius...and not all suits will necessarily be easy to use. This is a somewhat general problem with the 'perk to attribute level' replacement...even if a skill isn't very broad, a character might want to be competent at it, and attribute level is frequently less than competent.

But the bigger problem is that Environment Suit acts as a DX and skill cap..

That's the thing. It makes little sense that bulky armour gives no DX penalties, while a smart battlesuit or the like that has servos automatically match the user's movement so that the user doesn't even feel the suit is there gives a DX cap. At worst there should be a DX penalty without a proper Perk (or if skill is less than DX, if people prefer the skill path). Lower-of-two-skills is kinda meh when compared to heavy armour.

[wellspring]

Agree with many of the ideas here. Certainly there's a lot of overlap between skills and I'd like to see some consolidation.

Gesture seems like either a language of its own (perhaps like a pidgin it caps out, this time at Broken). Or it could simply be an application of Perform that is easy enough to do untrained. If you want to buy it up (say you're playing a mime), then take it as a technique.

Fast-draw to me is a hard Technique of the weapon skill of the weapon you're fast-drawing. You lose fast draw (ammo) but to me that's ok.

Finance, Market Analysis, and Economics have vast overlap. There are differences in practice, but are they significant enough to matter in game terms? If I were building a financier, I'd take Law (US tax), Accounting, Current Events (business), Math (stats), and Economics. I suppose you could call the package Professional Skill (Financier). I don't see what Market ANalysis or Finance adds that aren't already covered by those other skills.

To me skills ought to be mutually exclusive and exhaustive. There should be enough skills to cover everything, but not so many that two skills cover the same ground (or, more often, where two skills cover all the same ground as a third). They should also all be useful for something. There are too many skills that you buy at char gen because you feel like you have to, to fit your character concept, and then never roll in a campaign. Knowledges in particular suffer from both problems-- too much overlap, too little utility.

Strategy and Tactics. In theory, I see the difference. In practice, again I don't see how the distinction would come up in-game, and a merge would make sense. Make it /TL since it appears that shifts in technology lead to major changes in military science.

Esoteric Medicine should be eliminated. Physician below a certain TL should simply BE those esoteric techniques, that may or may not actually work. (Certainly not in a realistic game).

As others have said, the Armor encumbrance rules need an overhaul-- and that includes NBC and Vacc suits, which are after all armor for environmental conditions.

I'm fine with the Bard and Ninja skills, but why not separate them out into their chapter or section (Powers as Skills).

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by wellspring

Fast-draw to me is a hard Technique of the weapon skill of the weapon you're fast-drawing. You lose fast draw (ammo) but to me that's ok.

Just another technique for your weapon. One for the weapon, another for the ammo.

Esoteric Medicine should be eliminated. Physician below a certain TL should simply BE those esoteric techniques

You're confusing Esoteric with Naturalist. Esoteric medicine isn't just herbal medicines; it's all the other weird stuff -- chi healing, crystals, whatever. Details are setting dependent, but it's not TL limited. You could have weird alien Esoteric Medicine in your ultra-tech space opera game.[/QUOTE]

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

As someone noted in the recent thread discussing Crewman skill, this is often taken by PCs to indicate that they won't get underfoot when travelling by a given vehicle type, but rarely actually rolled. At some point, one might as well make something like that a perk rather than a full skill. And what can Sailor-18 actually do so much better than Sailor-11?

I think it would have more going for it in a situation where the ship acts as an environment rather than as a tool.

When you're using a ship, Crewman is an important skill for your mass of crew doing massed activities to work the ship, and maybe for a helmsman. Those are most likely NPC roles, though, and don't individually do much of interest.

But when you're operating within a ship, Crewman means knowing how to deal with that environment. A good crewman knows where things are and all the ways to get there from here (or can make informed guesses on an unfamiliar ship), and knows how to interact with most of the myriad devices along the way. Having that at high levels isn't much needed if all you want to do is not embarrass yourself while puttering around on your own ship under normal conditions. But in a shipboard crisis, it could be vital.

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

That's the thing. It makes little sense that bulky armour gives no DX penalties, while a smart battlesuit or the like that has servos automatically match the user's movement so that the user doesn't even feel the suit is there gives a DX cap. At worst there should be a DX penalty without a proper Perk (or if skill is less than DX, if people prefer the skill path). Lower-of-two-skills is kinda meh when compared to heavy armour.

Environment Suit as DX-cap is not for a battlesuit so smart that the user doesn't even feel it's there, obviously. As Basic says, "some sleek, ultra-tech suits might not limit skills at all!" But lots of environment suits (and fictional battlesuits) are not easy to move, or move precisely, in. I'd be surprised if real armor is ever as hard to move in as a space suit, though fictional armor might be.

Capping might not be best mechanic, but I don't think it's as bad as you say.

Actually, exporting that component to a Technique might make it a bit nicer for people who have some DX-based skills raised well above DX...

[simply Nathan]

I'm using a much shorter skill list than the norm (~30 is less than the 100+ in DF, much less the several hundred in the Basic Set).

Long-distance hiking is a function of HT-based Explorer, HT-based Athletics, or a default of HT-4. Simply hiking at full HT without the other things those skills grant would be a Perk.

Swimming is a function of HT-based Athletics for staying afloat, breath-holding, or endurance swimming. DX-based Athletics for the skill cap of fighting in the water. A Perk of swimming as if the skill was known at Attribute+0 is a Perk.

Knowing the market value of a saleable item is a roll against Merchant or Craftsmanship(assuming an appropriate familiarity of that skill). A Perk would allow this against base IQ instead, but would be of no help for haggling or Savior-Faire in the Merchant's Guild.

All weapons can be Fast-Drawn at skill-4. A Perk specialized per skill raises this to full skill.

Rather than having separate sword and knife fencing skills, I have a perk called Weapon Finesse specialized by skill; it adds the option of the F parry in exchange for facing encumbrance penalties for all one-handed thrusting weapons under the skill.

First Aid is a function of IQ-based Medicine, Poisons/Diagnosis of Per-based Medicine. A separate Perk would be available for IQ- or Per-based competence at administering first aid, of identifying poisons, or of diagnosing diseases.

The list goes on.

I don't think I'm even going to require rolls for Gesture or Knot-Tying, if they even come up.