Alt.history - What trade could Europe and China have in the middle ages?

[RGTraynor]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

You're welcome to burn your copy of GURPS Low-Tech, if you don't appreciate it. I greatly appreciate mine.

Err. So let me get this straight: citing a wrong figure and pointing out that the 5x, 5x is a game fiat = the entire book sucks?

I wouldn't say that you're raising a straw man so much as this:

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by martin_rook

Sure, but depending on the culture, it might not be okay to enslave the people nearby, who are pretty similar (culturally, racially, or whatever) to yours. But slaves from some far-off (and no doubt, barbaric) land might be acceptable.

That would not be historically correct for race/skin colour. Nobody did racial slavery until the age-of-sail or thereabouts. Certainly not in the medieval period. Slavery-by-culture might be possible, but it still sounds odd t me.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

I remember on Emperor of the Sea a scene where one Korean merchant chieftainess is personally acting as a creepily Affably Evil sort of schoolmarm to children being groomed to be concubines for Chinese nobles. To be far that is not quite the same as selling children to a street brothel if one wishes to make distinctions and it might even be a more comfortable life then a peasant girl would have.

Indeed, ending up the bed-slave of a high-status man is a form of social mobility.

Although from a certain perspective, it's important whether the move is for life, or only for half a decade or so until the woman's owner thinks she's gotten too old - what happens to her then?

Some bed-slave owners might set their slaves free with a parting gift, a reward for "good behaviour" and so that she can have a decent life and support the owner's bastard children, but many can't afford that, or can but aren't sufficiently satisfied with the slave's apparent level of fidelity (or use that as an excuse anyway even though she has been "good"). All that is common behaviour (manumission, and giving the reward, or withholding it with cause or without) for upper class gentlemen in my Ärth historical fantasy setting.

Ending up the concubine of a King or Emperor, though, is likely a move for life. He'll have the resources to not need to manumit those he's no longer interested in, and won't have to demote then to kitchen work because he can afford to maintain his idle ex-concubines.

[Hans Rancke-Madsen]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

I remember on Emperor of the Sea a scene where one Korean merchant chieftainess is personally acting as a creepily Affably Evil sort of schoolmarm to children being groomed to be concubines for Chinese nobles. To be far that is not quite the same as selling children to a street brothel if one wishes to make distinctions and it might even be a more comfortable life then a peasant girl would have.

The alternative to selling children into slavery was often that the children starve.


Hans

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Hans Rancke-Madsen

The alternative to selling children into slavery was often that the children starve.


Hans

Rescuing from the fire back into the frying pan isn't much of a choice.

[martin_rook]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

That would not be historically correct for race/skin colour. Nobody did racial slavery until the age-of-sail or thereabouts. Certainly not in the medieval period. Slavery-by-culture might be possible, but it still sounds odd t me.

Well, no, but I was giving the situation some leeway, as it IS a fantasy analog, not an exact duplication. It might be interesting for the "Chinese" to claim they disapprove of slavery... And then the PCs find out part of the trade deal with them cleared out the debtors' prisons.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

That would not be historically correct for race/skin colour. Nobody did racial slavery until the age-of-sail or thereabouts. Certainly not in the medieval period. Slavery-by-culture might be possible, but it still sounds odd t me.

A lot of slavery was associated with opportunism. The reason it is called slave instead of thrall was that there was a lot of prey in the Ukraine. It is more likely for a culture to be already associated with slavery by outside factors then to be first associated with slavery and then enslaved.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Indeed, ending up the bed-slave of a high-status man is a form of social mobility.

Although from a certain perspective, it's important whether the move is for life, or only for half a decade or so until the woman's owner thinks she's gotten too old - what happens to her then?

Some bed-slave owners might set their slaves free with a parting gift, a reward for "good behaviour" and so that she can have a decent life and support the owner's bastard children, but many can't afford that, or can but aren't sufficiently satisfied with the slave's apparent level of fidelity (or use that as an excuse anyway even though she has been "good"). All that is common behaviour (manumission, and giving the reward, or withholding it with cause or without) for upper class gentlemen in my Ärth historical fantasy setting.

Ending up the concubine of a King or Emperor, though, is likely a move for life. He'll have the resources to not need to manumit those he's no longer interested in, and won't have to demote then to kitchen work because he can afford to maintain his idle ex-concubines.

Several concubines in China were clan-founders. I don't think "bastard" would quite be the word for her children's status though; a closer analogy would be the child of a Scottish handfast.

Older concubines in a harem could actually be useful. They can act as advisors, or beauticians, and have domestic role similar to eunechs.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

Several concubines in China were clan-founders. I don't think "bastard" would quite be the word for her children's status though; a closer analogy would be the child of a Scottish handfast.

Older concubines in a harem could actually be useful. They can act as advisors, or beauticians, and have domestic role similar to eunechs.

Sure. If the man can afford to keep the older concubines fed and clothed, he might we well keep them. If they're supported at a sufficiently high quality of life, they won't want to be set free anyway. And an Emperor or King can certainly do that.

[ak_aramis]

Originally Posted by Hans Rancke-Madsen

The alternative to selling children into slavery was often that the children starve.


Hans

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Rescuing from the fire back into the frying pan isn't much of a choice.

It's also worth noting that few systems of slavery were as hard on the slave as the US South circa 1850...